Baroness Embraces Both Limitations and Limitless Creativity on "Stone" (Interview with John Baizley and Sebastian Thomson)
Baroness return with their follow-up to 2019’s Gold & Grey with Stone; an album much more simplistic by design when compared to the grandiosity of its predecessor. Recorded in a country home in the middle of Pennsylvania during Covid isolation, this record is the sum of its million little pieces, whether that be stick clicks, birds chirping or even the squeak of a stool, it all made its way to this sixth record as part of their lexicon.
I spoke to vocalist, guitarist and founding member John Dyer Baizley and drummer Sebastian Thomson about a myriad of things spanning from the recording process, which included using the particular space of an AirBnB and how it made the recording of the drums its initial focal point. The use of obscure and random sounds and archaic, poorly maintained instruments helped the band recall limitations they once had–now, with their much more refined chops they've been able to create a visceral Venn diagram of their eras to create this newest iteration of the band’s sound. We spoke about the deeper meaning behind Stone and what it meant to John and Co.’s creative process, resulting in what he calls “hypnotic simplicity”. Read on below for a very in-depth piece on this great new addition to the band's library.
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What was the inspiration for simplifying things and making it a little less grandiose on Stone?
John Baizley: I think it was a practical thing in that we had made the decision to essentially make this record ourselves. In some ways we didn’t want to get confused and lost in a project that was already going to be a major piece of work for us. Specifically in recording if you can realize a boundary, it frees you up and allows you to continue to have a very simple starting point for the next record, which is for us to look back 1 album into the past and identify what was a critical standout or a fundamental feature which is this case was Gold & Grey. It was an album which was about the layers, overloading, grandiosity, and all the embellishments; an all-out audio war. We wanted this record to simply not be that, like with Gold & Grey we were looking back at Purple and those songs were really tight and compact which created the idea for Gold & Grey to be much more cinematic with that. It makes sure that each successive record has a huge fundamental difference. It’s so that we can use everything we have done in the past without feeling repetitious and that’s fine enough for me, its not like I am not going back to Purple to figure out what went well since it was 2 albums ago.
When I was listening to Stone, I was gathering more of the aesthetics of Purple. In terms of song length it was also more compact, Purple is probably the easiest record of yours to listen to up to this point.
JB: Some of our records genuinely require a few listens to dig into. I remember when we put out Red Album and Blue Record we had some close friends and confidants to play the records to. They always had this kind of surprised response of “there is a lot going on here”. It was never really the goal of this band to write for anyone else, so if it takes a few listens to unfold, I learned very quickly that is a good thing. As a band I don’t think the strength of Baroness is that we write simple and easy to digest songs. Internally we hold ourselves to a high standard and are constantly trying to absorb outside influences that help to push us forward.
We certainly sensed that this album was going to be a bit leaner and more muscular. It is not always a goal of mine to capture a live feel when recording, and it wasn’t, but in the studio we try to ignore reality and almost create a super reality for the listener. On stage, I don’t give 2 flying fucks about what we recorded, because we already know that we created a song that works there. My goal in the studio since we have all this equipment and this one opportunity to get it right and to try and elevate it beyond just the four of us. Sometimes that means you add or subtract; the focus on this record was on capturing a certain kind of energy. We rented an AirBnB and hauled all this equipment that I have been collecting for years into this giant cabin out in the woods. We spent that time rehearsing songs that we had never played together before. Because this was during the throes of the Pandemic. We made the studio space the rehearsal space, and then the recording space. We worked in pairs of songs 10-14 hours a day, totally musical fitness, getting ourselves in shape, developing chemistry and depth with the songs.
Once we had the arrangements locked in, but before we knew all the specific details about what everybody was going to do before drum fills had been considered, I asked Gina what chords she was playing, all of this before any music theory looking for unique takes each time. Leading up to this I felt we lost a long time ago with the band with all the lineup changes, was that the chemistry of the band was more focused on bringing people in, which took away from our ability to improvise as much. This was the first time between records that had the same lineup as before, we finally turned that corner personnel wise and we have that chemistry and it allowed us to do as much as we wanted. For instance, a song like “Choir” was a full-on improvisation with no structure, no form, no arrangement whatsoever, played it, liked it and made it a song without adjusting anything. We had the opportunity to do it ourselves, it puts us in a headspace where everything we do was on our own, internally confined only by the limits of our own creativity, we had no producer and it allowed us more time to take different routes to be creative. It would have been a great waste of time in the studio. There were more human moments to live and breathe throughout the music. It could be a squeaky stool we were sitting on or Seb speaking, we even have a song that starts with a stick click, it seemed like moments like that were critical to the recording. It was much more similar to how we prepare for tours.
At the end of the day there are only 4 people responsible for the content of the album and hopefully it turned out exactly the way you wanted it to be.
Sebastian Thomson: Even though this was a new thing for us, the cabin seemed like something Baroness did before I joined. Kind of like just messing around and having fun with your friends, much less formal.
JB: It was fun, we made fun decisions. We were like “what would be fun to do that we’ve never tried to do before?” What are some ideas that we have heard of but have never put into practice. It was about the overarching concept that we applied to our creative process; we started as a very DIY band playing in some basements and such. There is a whole portion of our career that was not in a professional space, I think about my musical upbringing and the earlier stages of the band, it was fun to struggle. I don’t think that this band has ever lost the propensity to struggle, this record might have been a break from that since the band had the same members; we maintained the creative control to do what we do. The more that we were able to do the more fun we would have. Let’s do what we’ve been talking about and put the rubber to the road. It was excruciating at times but it was overall a fun record to make.
What was the cabin space like?
JB: I think we wanted to be in that cabin space with a great drum sound, the place sounded excellent for drums.
ST: I walked in and clapped a few times in the main room and knew that the place had the sound we wanted.
JB: If we were able to, we would love to go back to this house and record the next one. The experience was just so cool, we had a plan and an angle, but we lacked the minute details. We sort of had to rely on the 4 of us internally to keep us moving. We just worked and didn’t need many breaks, it was a purely creative and supremely rewarding experience. I think the records are overall about the recording. We really try to let the studio guide us in the decisions, whether that be a restriction or the space itself. All of it becomes a part of the record. In the beginning of “Magnolia” you will hear birds chirping and wind blowing, we set mics up outside and Gina had to play an acoustic guitar in 28 degree weather but those intricacies make for a unique recording that are inseparable from the album itself. There is a burst of wind that takes out the guitar sound for a moment, which instead of scrapping it, it ended up sounding cool instead. The unexpected parts added to the authenticity.
When I listen back to a song like your single “Last Word” there are some big riffs. What was it like writing and recording that song in particular?
JB: That one I think from my memory of making that song and making it a single, is that more than any individual song on the record was that it had equal input from the four of us. The arrangement and the music itself. It is based on a song that Gina wrote in the Pandemic sessions and we learned it as a four piece, Nick wrote the chorus, Gina wrote the riffs, I wrote the verse and Seb and Nick had a rhythm workout at the end, it was a good example of the musicians that we’ve become. It isn’t always the case with writing our songs, it usually isn’t just one person writing these.
It is a good example of what the band is trying to do for Stone. A bite-sized portion.
JB: In terms of sequencing this is the only way that Stone would work.
You had talked about “Choir” before, it also felt like “The Dirge” was transitional as well, did you feel the same way about that track as well? Was it as improvisational as the other?
JB: That’s actually part 3 of a trio, it starts with “Beneath The Rose”, continues into “Choir” and finally “The Dirge”. I think of them as a single piece of music with 3 songs within it. “Beneath The Rose” was written around a riff that we had from the Gold & Grey sessions which was almost a full song then, but it didn’t quite click; it was one of the first things I worked on during Stone. We were just jamming; the whole track was built on a tempo and a key. We had recorded 3 versions of the song, the one on the record was the first one because it sounded the coolest; it sounded like we maybe had an idea as to how the song goes. We didn’t have a goal other than doing something cool and using some of the strengths that Seb has in terms of being a krautrock and rhythmic guy.
ST: That track feels like a very important moment for Baroness; it is very baroque and dense. The post rock thing is very minimalistic and we found a way to do the Baroness version of that, which turned out to be very cool.
JB: It was the kind of thing we talked about since Seb joined on Purple. Sort of hypnotic simplicity which we tried for during Gold & Grey but it came out to be one of the most complicated things we ever did. This kind of minimalism isn’t outside our influential wheelhouse, we just had never taken the risk to dedicate ourselves so fully to how a song is written. We had to ignore our typical Baroness instincts and more on our internal chemistry. There were a few moments during the recording where there are chords and Gina would say “we shouldn’t know what each other are playing, because then we are going to play something that just makes too much sense.” We wanted to use some of these moments that we have during our live show where we give the crowd a break, instead more of a musical dialogue. We use it on the record to give a reason to develop a deeper chemistry but doesn’t require a ton of synchronization, it requires where the dynamics of the song are going and listening to your bandmates in kind of a fluid way. It was like we unlocked a new sonic landscape for ourselves. Moments like that are really exciting.
ST: I think it works really well in contrast to the main body of Baroness, it works out and is harmonically more complicated, but you throw something like that in there once in a while.
It reminds you that while you are a band, you are also 4 people with unique musical backgrounds allowing you to input some individual flavor into your songs.
JB: With “The Dirge” it was written after a good portion of the rest of the album, it was a gentle, quick and meaningful song at the end of the three-part section. Gina and I were using acoustic elements even in our electric songs quite frequently, we didn’t need the gimmick of ending the record with an acoustic song, we needed the acoustic sound to be such an important part of this record so that it becomes much more than a bookend. I was watching a movie where there was a scene where 2 women played an open mic night and played some simple chord progressions that I liked. I had my acoustic and I played along and I started to sing along and changed some of the riffs, but it came together quickly with minimal instrumentation. Gina’s grandmother was emptying out her place and she had a Lowrey organ; the thing with all the buttons on the top with like 10 dead keys on it. It had a cool sound and we wanted to include it on the song, among others. The record is so fun to me with all of these types of moments; anything that’s within arm’s reach can become part of the eternity of Baroness especially because it is recorded. That kind of open-mindedness comes through on the record.
When the moment strikes, you never know what will happen. It reminds me of one of my favorite Smashing Pumpkins songs, “Mayonnaise” where Billy Corgan used a crappy little guitar, but he liked the sound it had. Anything is worth trying out.
JB: Gina and I had been listening to a band called Amps For Christ and there is a song called “Edward” that sounded like it was recorded on a Walkman. It was a lo-fi recording so we limited ourselves to using substandard equipment because we liked the vibe of it. Sometimes in the typical band, producer, engineer situation with multiple people involved looking for equipment as such would be a glorious waste of time and money.
You have to remember how things were when you started out as a band, you knew nothing but substandard equipment.
JB: Or more purely when we were young and we had nothing but limitations, both technically and everything else, we were still making things, just because you have the world at your disposal doesn’t make it easier, in fact it can be needlessly complex at times. With no real worry about wasting time and our sole involvement we are allowed to have that level of creativity.
Why Stone, in terms of the name of the record?
JB: When we had been previously engaged in our color-themed records; it was always conceived as a finite project. I liked simple titling structures which started with Red Album in 2006, something in terms of the colors records, we never thought we would finish, which became a 15 year cycle, it was nerve-wracking that it was ending because working within that series that had no concept of meaning, but more a concept as titling and direction. When Gold & Grey was done, I was internally trepidatious about what we would do next, because it was usually easy; it was scary. The thing I realized about that is that I loved working within that series and the idea was to just transition from one era into the next and nothing needed to change inexorably. Where Gold & Grey was the last piece of that particular puzzle and then Stone became the first piece in the next one.
I had been taking a great deal of inspiration daily from this cemetery behind my house called West Laurel Hill; it had gorgeous old mausoleums and is an amazingly serene, peaceful and large place. When you think back to all those turbulent years that we all struggled with, I found some calm and meaning that translated into lyrics and music; the lyrics were last and the hardest part of the record to do; we took a break from the music and then I had to come back to write lyrics to songs that were essentially done otherwise. The 4 of us had gained a level of stability that we hadn’t otherwise had before; it was a cornerstone, a foundation for us; I was literally surrounded by stones. The real difficulty for me on this record was finding that lyrical content, which isn’t a small portion of the record, it’s huge. I worked for like 10 months on the vocals and within the spirit of the record: not overthinking it. I know that I can’t overwork something which was a weird pressure which felt to me. It reminded me of Greek mythology and the fate of Sisyphus who was punished by having to push a stone up a hill daily and after achieving it had to repeat the task infinitely. The idea of these repeated processes only to yield nothing, but I started to realize that there may have been something there to take away from it all. It was ok to throw something away that I worked hard on and start anew.
It wasn’t that I can’t do this, it’s that what I tried yesterday didn’t work. It was a personal aspect of the title for me. One thing that is important for our records to reach the proper audiences is that we don’t always spell out to our fans through the songs or album titles. Ultimately, we are not telling a story of one person, however one of experience, absorbing the world around us and reflecting on them through the lyrics. I felt that Stone had all these symbols that were relevant to me and the rest of us which were conceptual and more personal, something that our more intrepid fans can kind of dig through. It worked on the foundation that all our records worked out from and clearly signaled a sea change for something.
“Shine” seems like a pretty heavy song in terms of emotional weight. How do you go about conveying that heaviness in song form?
JB: I think that with our songwriting chemistry, I tend to lean towards the personal, emotional, dark and melancholic; those are the colors that I tend to paint with musically. It seems like Gina and I have a tendency to move towards sweet and sad seeing as we are singers and songwriters, Nick and Seb on the other hand are able to inject energy, enthusiasm and swagger which may be contradictory to what we are trying to achieve in a set of lyrics or the chord progression which can be dense, but through the rhythm team of Nick and Seb they make it lively and balanced. If we want to constantly match that dynamism it would just teeter off into stupid rock n roll. In effect this band has always been and always will be a combination of contradictory ideas kind of meeting in a center point and feeling unique. That song bluntly is about loss, there were several people in my life that I lost during the recording of this record. I wrote a song about the loss and spaces that people leave behind. I wouldn’t want the song to feel that way the entire time. Music isn’t about making someone feel sad or happy, it is much more nuanced and more difficult and ultimately more rewarding when you give these things layers to unfold over subsequent listens; I felt that this was one of the best choruses at least musically that we had ever written.
The record certainly seems to allow itself to be understood more on each listen, with all this nuance going on the next listen will be the one I walk away with the most to this point.
JB: I think it will be fun for people who have the energy and curiosity of listening to it that much, I think more than any of our other records there is a good throughline for this record even for how diverse it is; a steady narrative. With our former records there are still hidden moments that I discover when I have to listen back to them. Our goal is always to record something that we would want to discover on our own. I think that adds an element of us being able to make these discoveries as we write, we are trying to prove our capabilities as songwriters; an album that would blow me away. I think that using the language of music with a band like this draws you in and creates enough mystique that you want to hear it again. I don’t think the cerebral aspect of the record comes out until 3 or 4 listens; a grower instead of a shower. I didn’t realize that at first, but during the mastering process I did. We have become better at creating a well-balanced and nutritious meal.
As far as getting out on the road I see that you have some regional openers from Sheer Mag and Imperial Triumphant, Escuela Grind, KEN Mode and Soul Glo. How do you go about curating shows such as these?
JB: I’m a fan of all of them, bands that are doing something exciting right now. It has been an incredible year in terms of the extreme side of music. Being that this record to us is a reaffirmation of our DIY attitude towards this band, it was important to have support bands that match that sort of energy as well. Sometimes you get so big as a band that you lose track of who your openers should be, maybe it isn’t always that well-seasoned act, I don’t think any of these bands would do a full tour with us, so we decided to work regionally. We aren’t always the easiest band to package up, we are always a little outside of someone’s zone.
ST: We don’t fit neatly into one of those 15 categories; it is always a confusing discussion.
JB: We talk about this all the time about who we are and what we want that’s realistic, what we like and what works for us. It is about freedom and presenting us in the way that we want to. I had a lightbulb moment at a Full of Hell and Blood Incantation show and I realized that the fans there are our fans; familiar faces. I feel at home with these people, why wouldn’t we have them at our shows? I think most of our fans are familiar with this, super rad bands that will keep us on our toes; lots of raw talent.
ST: It is also selfishly fun to play with different bands and make new friends and reaffirm old friends.
JB: I was reminded of the process of booking shows in the early aughts about reaching out to bands that you wanted to play with. I made sure to reach out to everybody and let them know how big of fans we are of theirs. Touring is only good when it’s fun.
Is there anything else about the record we didn’t touch upon?
JB: I would like to think that our audience doesn’t expect a singular thing from us, but sometimes just in case they do it gives me pleasure to make records that have the amount of dynamics and variety of rhythms, sudden shifts between complex and simple. This record was fun to make because it feels like there was a great deal of variety without going in a million different directions. It feels like the musical narrative of the record is pretty concise and a unique narrative. “Anodyne” is the only song that we have ever done that has a standard backbeat like it does on it.
ST: I remember sending drum files and you picked up one section of the end of the file. You picked that out, how did we not use this before.
JB: You have always been able to take a stock version of something and tweak it to make it unique, it feels like an oddity on this record. “Under The Wheel” has dynamics that go up every time you hear them. This all felt like a DIY project and was the stability we had throughout. Sure it was mixed and mastered by someone else but before that only 4 people had any input on the record. For example a couple of weeks ago we visited the vinyl pressing plant in Alexandria, VA, we plan to play acoustic shows in independent retail stores. Our goal is to work in the world of independence even though we can play on those larger stages. The place where we can be integrated and woven into the textiles of what we make, the real people that all make this thing move. At the end of the day if we experience our kind of success, we can feel a sense of pride free of hubris. We learn from all of this and move on. We release something that we are proud of.
In a caring way, you get involved with all of the people that help this next stage of Baroness get off the ground, good press for all.
JB: When you listen to anything classic you want to hear the band represented honestly. You don’t listen to Led Zeppelin to hear the engineers and other songwriters. Rock is primarily musicians who are also their own songwriters. If you are excited and more involved in what you do, the more you are able to assert your vison into that with authority and confidence. You have to know if you are up to the task. Even if it ends up in someone else’s hands it should be clear what our vision is. We don’t want to end up where some of our peers are when instead the infrastructure tells us what to do. That is sort of the exact opposite of what I was interested in when I got into music. This is our eternal gift to you.
Unlike some of our other albums where there is an obvious story in terms of new members or falling off a cliff, the story with Stone is simply about making the record itself; the time period in which it was written, the length of time to complete it and the various details along the way and not being active as a touring band at the time as well. The record to me is like looking at a Monet painting, it’s not a direct image, it’s a collection of expressions, whether that be tiny little dabs or bigger strokes; what I hear are a multitude of layers of tiny expressions that are piled on top of each other until the form becomes somewhat visible but the atmosphere, the feeling and the energy and the expression are all there too. All these little pieces and flourishes create a bigger picture; one that the 4 of us couldn’t get to by ourselves.
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Stone releases September 15th via Abraxan Hymns.
