. . .
Laina Dawes is someone that I’ve long respected and admired, as both a writer and a friend. She’s been talking excitedly about this project for as long as I’ve known her, and seeing it finally come to fruition is amazing. She’s a woman with a strong voice and a helluva lot to say, so I jumped at the chance to send her a few interview questions and see if I could dig a little deeper into her story.
Gaining her perspective as a black female metalhead, as well as those held by other traditionally marginalized or underrepresented groups within the metal community, is vital for promoting understanding and acceptance within this strange little world we’ve created for ourselves. As vastly different as each individual metaller is, at the end of the day, we’re all in this together. We are brothers of metal and sisters of steel; let’s start acting like it.
Laina Dawes’ book What Are YOU Doing Here? A Black Woman’s Life and Liberation in Heavy Metal will be released by Bazillion Points this October.
. . .
First off, congratulations are in order! Your book is finally about to see the light of day, which I’d imagine is a hugely proud moment (and a relief, to boot). How long have you been working on this project?
For this particular project, it’s been about four years. Before that I had written a number of articles, blog posts, a radio documentary for CBC Radio and presented a couple of papers at music/academic conferences on the subject.
What made you want to write this book? It’s the first of its kind, and definitely provides a necessary and underrepresented perspective.
The original project was to be a documentary on black women in rock and metal. I had written an essay on Skunk Anansie for an anthology (Marooned: The Next Generation of Desert Island Discs, Da Capo Press, 2007) and Ian Christe (Bazillion Points), who also contributed an essay, approached me and encouraged me to turn my original idea into a book. I started off with six months of research, doing a bit of traveling and talking to colleagues and a few black folks in the metal scene, put together a draft table of contents and started fleshing it out.
Within those four years, there were several drafts, tweaking and conversing with Bazillion Points about the narrative ‘voice’. Should it be academic in tone? Casual? I didn’t want the book to be perceived as a joke, and it took me a long time to get the narrative right, so it could be enjoyed by both metal, hardcore fans and those who might not be into the music, but interested in the subject matter.
How difficult was it to put it all together? Was it hard to track down any of the musicians or other women you interviewed, or was everyone pretty down with the idea from the onset?
It was very difficult, but most of the difficulties were self-imposed, as I’m a bit of an introvert (albeit, an opinionated one) and this project forced me to really reach out and talk to people. In terms of the interviewees, it was not easy, but I was lucky enough to have some great music journalism colleagues who recommended people for me to talk to and a couple of people found me via my blog and volunteered. And then there were people that I stalked at shows! Some I just reached out to as a fan, such as Skin from Skunk Anansie, Sandra St. Victor from the Family Stand, and Alexis Brown from Straight Line Stitch. Being from Canada, I felt that I was pretty out of the loop as there are very few black women in the metal scene here. I primarily focused my research in the States, simply because of demographics and the women were more open to share their experiences.
Not everyone I approached was willing, but I would say that the percentage of that was about 10% – not enough to make me discouraged. As I mention in the book, some were women who have established careers as rock musicians with some big-name artists who were not interested. And those who didn’t see much merit in what I was doing. I am going to guess that they felt uncomfortable talking about their ethnicity because talking about race in any aspect is not the easiest thing to do. I also had a run-in with someone from a metal band who seemed to not get the memo: I’m writing a book on black women, and he was shocked that I was black! Hence, awkward interview.
How old were you when you got into metal? What was it that initially steered you onto the left-hand path, and what led you to seek out ever more extreme sounds?
I was around 7, 8 and saw that horrible movie, “KISS Meets the Phantom of the Opera” on TV. I was really fascinated by their makeup and I asked for and received my first KISS album shortly after. As I grew up in rural Ontario, I had some pretty rough teenage neighbors who were into Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, and some other classic stuff, and I was always into music magazines like Circus, Creem and Hit Parader, so I started researching bands, trading tapes via pen pals and later became obsessed with The Clash, Violent Femmes, Rush, and Judas Priest.
After a brief foray into the Grunge era, I really got into the heavier stuff via Sacred Reich, Corrosion of Conformity, Sepultura, Slayer, and over the years and through friends, started listening to more underground hardcore, thrash and death metal. I’ve always been attracted to the relationship between really aggressive music and the power it emanates, which, because of my background, I really needed (and still need) to feel.
What do you love most about metal?
I love how I feel listening to it. As mentioned before, I’m all about self-empowerment and feeling emotionally in control. I can express those sides of me and emote my rage and frustration, emotions that I cannot express in my every-day life. I feel that it is extremely important to have a forum in which you can let all of that negativity out in a positive way and the energy and power within the music is a perfect accompaniment for that. In addition, I come from a family of classical musicians, so the musical proficiency and variances of musical styles under the metal umbrella is really fascinating to explore.
What was it like growing up as a young black woman in the metal/punk scene? Did you ever encounter outright hostility from fellow heshers? I’m sure it’s something you explore in the book itself, but an anecdote or two would be killer.
I was adopted by a white family at six months, grew up in a predominately rural and all-white environment, so I was used to racial harassment and discrimination from a very young age! I was always really angry as a kid but I turned that internal anger into being very forthright. I did what I wanted to do despite people telling me I didn’t belong or wasn’t good enough. The unwavering belief that I had every right as a human being to go where I wanted and with whom I wanted, is an aspect of my personality that definitely led to the writing of this book. I simply never thought that I shouldn’t be in any environment because of my ethnicity and gender. But was it hard? Yes. Did it hurt? Oh hell to the yes.
However, in 2008 I traveled to Montreal to cover a metal festival for Metal Edge Magazine, and that was a really hostile environment. I was alone, in a city in which I was not that familiar with, and a majority of the attendees seemed to not be from the city – not a lot of people spoke English and from their reaction to me, most likely did not socialize with anyone who didn’t look like them. Someone threw a beer bottle at my head – not the first time that has happened, though! The usual ”fucking nigger” and “don’t you people have your own music?” comments happened within the first few hours I was there. And those were the English ones, the ones I understood. One guy threatened to kick the shit out of me . . . Yeah, great experience.
I actually had to find a quiet space on the festival grounds, sit down and contemplate whether I should run to the hills or stay and do my job. I chose to stay and do my job and the next person that said something to me I challenged him to fight. And continued to do so. I didn’t like feeling scared or sorry for myself. What was funny is that I was really psyched to see some of the bands on that two-day festival and I knew that if I left, I would miss a great line-up and disappoint my editor, which was bad because that was the biggest metal publication I had ever worked for. For these assholes? I think not. But that was the first time when my toughness disappeared and I really questioned my decision as to whether the metal scene was for me.
In the book, I write about some other experiences and some horrible ones that some of my interviewees went through, which even today, makes me really mad. I think the ones that disturb me the most, though, is when white women partake in the racial harassment. That has happened to me in my hometown (Toronto) when I’ve been at a show and I really have to scratch my head over that.
I’ve been reading Toure’s Who’s Afraid of Post-Blackness?: What It Means to Be Black Now and was intrigued by the chapter that addressed the notion of “acting black.” Heavy metal has traditionally been a white man’s game (though we are changing that definition!). Have you encountered any animosity or confusion from black folk about your musical interests or involvement in this world? How did your family, friends, and teachers first react to your involvement in this scene and how do they feel about it now, decades down the line?
When I initially approached people about What Are You Doing Here? and how race and racism play a part in how black women participate in the metal, hardcore and punk scenes, there were some people who thought that this book was going to be how evil white people could be. In reality, the majority of resistance to black women participating in these musical cultures stems from their black friends and family members. The appreciation of the music and culture, which might be evident through how someone chooses to dress, or the music that they collect – is seen as a rejection of their blackness, which is an extremely sensitive subject. Interestingly enough, the women I interviewed were some of the most militant black folks I’ve ever met.
Because my parents are white, I never had any issues with them in relation to not being ‘black enough’ and they have always been supportive of my music-listening and writing choices. I have had a lot of resistance from black friends, co-workers and boyfriends who felt that I wasn’t ‘black enough’ for their liking and long ago, some people whom I volunteered with in various anti-racism and social justice organizations – I actually got kicked out of one organization (and politely asked to leave from another) because of my family background and music preferences. I also lost a couple of friends in writing this book who questioned my cultural authenticity, which was disappointing.
In the book I write about the problem within black media outlets in embracing the fact that there are black male and female metal musicians who could do with some media exposure. As one of my interviewees said, there is a vested interest for black-centric publications to regulate what is considered ‘black’ for marketing and branding purposes. Obviously, one of the main hypocrisies about this is that black publications have welcomed non-black artists who are performing black-centric music, or even non-music performing, non-black women who are in relationships with black male musicians, but the hardest music they will accept are from artists like Lenny Kravitz, Prince, Jimi Hendrix (after he was popularized among white audiences) and Living Colour – because they were successful in mainstream society. Notice how they are all men? When Jada Pinkett-Smith did Wicked Wisdom she didn’t even get much, if any coverage from black-centric publications. Anything harder than that is not deemed as worthy of being written about. The lineage from blues music, an African-American musical art form, to rock and heavy metal is detailed in the book. The rejection of metal music and culture can be quite hurtful to black women fans and musicians, but it is the stereotype about the people who are within it: i.e racist rednecks and the fact that not everyone likes these music genres are what make people pause.
Why do you think extreme metal is such a white, male-dominated subculture? What about this music is so good at keeping girls and people of color away?
I think that it has to do with gender and socioeconomic differences – once upon a time metal was perceived as a music and culture in which men – predominately white, working-class men – could release the pressure/resentment/frustration from not being able to procure the material items in which a capitalist society tells them they need in order to be a normative part of society. It was a venue, a ‘club’ where they could get away from their financial problems, nagging wives, screaming children and indulge in their primal instincts (okay that is a bit over-the top, I admit!) Obviously, because metal is huge in socially and economically disenfranchised countries in which the Anglo population is miniscule, this might not be accurate in explaining why, lets say people in the Middle East are fans, but generally the music serves as a form of escapism from everyday life. It’s loud, and aggressive, which are more masculine traits.
One of my interviewees was telling me about a conversation she had with a white male friend in the hardcore scene, who was having a hard time finding a job because he felt he was getting passed over for ‘minorities’ and women. He felt that the hardcore scene should be a ‘white male-only’ space because it was the only place where they didn’t have to think about women, minorities, and could escape from the horrible, horrible oppression that white men face every day!
As I mentioned before, stereotypes about redneck hillbillies keep women away because of fears of being sexually and racially harassed. But over the years, we are seeing a lot more women at shows, simply because they love the music and get the same pleasure from it as men do and obviously there is an extremely diverse group of men and women who are involved in the scene. What were once considered masculine traits such as aggression, are, in reality, traits that as humans we all share. But it was deemed as not appropriate for women to express those behaviors in public.
In What Are You Doing Here? I argue that for black women who are socially oppressed because of gender and race, the metal, hardcore and punk scenes can serve as a safe space in which they can let their aggressions and frustrations out. There is a tendency to generalize about our intelligence, our mannerisms, our physical attributes and our sexual habits. We are not all from the ‘ghetto’ and we are not ashamed of who we are and what we look like. The women I interviewed all said that the heavy music scenes they were into helped them feel that they could temporarily eschew these stereotypes and simply be themselves and recognized for their individual traits without being frowned upon and in some cases, without getting arrested! The problem is, what happens when the racial and gendered stereotypes enter these spaces of comfort and enjoyment?
During the course of your career, and especially in terms of writing this book, you encountered and spoke with many women of color who love and live this music. What are a few of your favorite stories that they shared with you?
There wasn’t one particular story that stood out for me – actually, talking to Dallas Coyle (ex-God Forbid) and my friend Kevin Stewart-Panko from Decibel who I spoke to during the research phase, was interesting, as they shared some thoughts from a male point of view that had me thinking, “WTF?” The best aspect of interviewing was finding out the similarities in the experiences we have all shared, and I actually became very close friends with a few of them. Those similarities were really key in how this book turned out, and because these scenes can be extremely lonely – a lot of people, including myself have very few, if any black male or female friends interested in the same music – it was a really cool bonding experience. We could chat about the hot white metal or punk musicians we had crushes on, and there was no judgment. We could share instances of racism we had experienced that we could not share with anyone because of the fear that no one else would really understand how devastating it was to us. While in a perfect world we choose our friends because of their individual traits and not physical similarities, I really appreciate the wonderful women and men I was able to talk to and hopefully, lasting relationships will come out of this experience.
As a female metal journalist, you and your peers are still often seen as something of a “novelty” (as ridiculous as that is). How have people reacted to you throughout your writing career? I know the wretched depths that comment sections can spiral down into, but I’d imagine you’ve also been met with messages of appreciation and relief – “there’s someone else like me!” – from girls and women in this scene.
I’ve always felt like an outsider, especially growing up where and how I did, so getting involved in metal music journalism wasn’t much of a soul-shocking experience. In some ways, I’ve been extremely lucky because I have met established metal journalists, photographers and other people involved in the scene who have been really cool. Do they see me as a novelty? Perhaps, but they have been really supportive – to my face, that is. Have I had to prove myself? Oh yeah . . . to a point. But I work my ass off and refuse to suck up to anyone. It’s not worth challenging my self-respect and anything I have achieved is because I have put in my time as a journalist and a fan.
I have been introduced to a few metal musicians who will not speak or look at me, and there have been a few who have looked at me standing in the photo pit and are completely stunned. From interviewing other black female journalists and photographers who had the same experiences, ignoring people is a very passive-aggressive way of letting you know that you do not have the social cache for them to converse with. Unfortunately I’ve had a few people who have done some things that have made me extremely angry, but I am pretty passionate about what I do, so I have to let that shit go. There are way more positives than negatives.
My female colleagues have for the most part, been really cool and while I’m not going to scream “vagina vagina!!!” at the top of my lungs, that camaraderie is extremely important. I admire strong, talented writers and people who are investigating interesting topics or looking at issues from a different perspective – not just those in which I share the same genitalia. But I do believe in reaching out and trying to support my fellow female journalists when they have created something cool and/or been unfairly criticized, especially when the criticisms are misogynist in nature. While it shows more about the personality and maturity of the commenter, it is still out of bounds and hurtful, as regardless of how hard you work or how good your writing is, if they disagree with your assertions it all boils down to what you have between your legs.
How did you get into music writing in the first place? What are some of your most memorable interviews/pieces, and what publications do you currently write for?
Since my preteen years when I collected Circus and Hit Parader magazines, I’ve always wanted to write about rock and metal, but I started off writing investigative pieces op/eds on racism and social justice issues because I thought back then that as a black girl, there was no way in hell I would ever be given the opportunity. After I finished university, I started writing for a few hip hop and urban online publications, but got bored pretty quickly and eventually started reviewing alternative rock bands. I met the former editor for Metal Edge Magazine at a music conference in 2005, and eventually started writing for the magazine in 2008.
My most memorable interview was hands down, Judas Priest’s Rob Halford, simply because I’ve been an admirer since I was 12. I also interviewed Oxbow’s Eugene Robinson for another publication and that was awe-inspiring, and Voivod’s Away, who was really cool. For What Are You Doing Here? interviewing Skin from Skunk Anansie and The Family Stand’s Sandra St. Victor were huge, because I admire both of them.
Because of the book I haven’t been doing much lately, but I write album and concert reviews and provide photos for Exclaim! Canada’s Aggressive Tendencies section and occasionally for Hellbound.ca, and I’m going to start writing for Bitch magazine this fall. I’ve also been a contributing editor at Blogher.com for over six years, writing on race and ethnicity issues.
What does feminism mean to you? Do you think there is a place for feminist thought within the heavy metal culture?
Oy vey. I don’t consider myself a ‘feminist,’ as I don’t adhere to the structured ‘movement’ and how it was conceived – off the backs of women of color – but I certainly agree with the general principles of equality. My issue is that the movement was conceived as a ‘catch-all’ movement, inspired for and by middle-class, able-bodied, heterosexual white women and that is alienating to a lot of people – men included. Is there a place for feminist thought within the metal scene? Definitely, but how? In what way? We have to go beyond writing articles that simply criticize men or focus on a specific sexist incident within the scene or on something a clueless male journalist has written– it does nothing. We need to think about ways in which we can constructively make the metal scene a totally inclusive space for everyone.
I am just as turned off of the “Hottest Chicks in…..” bullshit but why are women posing for Revolver magazine? Why are women posing naked in Guitar World, using a guitar to cover their private parts? Why are my white female colleagues not writing about how racism or anti-Semitism affects their sisters in the scene? Why am I seeing half-naked women backstage at Maryland Deathfest? There are women that are obviously capitalizing off their sexuality and benefiting off the “groupie-slut” stereotype, and we have to remember that there are specific issues that affect women of color in which white women are immune from – and benefit from. We have a long way to go, but women need to stop being part of the problem and start being constructive in the solution if we expect to see any relevant changes.
What’s your favorite album to listen to while writing? What’s your favorite album, period?
Right now, I have Mike Scheidt’s Stay Awake on heavy rotation. I also love Ufomammut’s Oro: Opus Primum, the Witchcraft reissues, Karma to Burn, and Pallbearer’s Sorrow and Extinction. They are heavy but smooth enough to still concentrate on work. I have several favorite albums. I’d have to say Judas Priest’s Screaming for Vengeance was my favorite when I was younger, but I also loved Slayer’s God Hates Us All, Sepultura’s Roots, and Mastodon’s Remission. The reason being is that I can remember how my body reacted the first time I heard them. I think the band Lesbian is amazing, and I am also seriously digging Dragged into Sunlight right now.
What do you hope to accomplish with What Are YOU Doing Here??
I hope it provides a unique perspective as to how people utilize heavy music to assert their individuality and to find freedom – temporary or not – from the outside world. Black women have the right to consume, enjoy and participate in heavy music cultures like everyone else. I met a few young black people who were afraid to go to shows, afraid that they would be alone and might be assaulted, or be ostracized by their friends and family members. I’m hoping that my experiences and the experiences from women musicians and fans in the scene will encourage them to get out there and really participate. As you know, the live performance and the camaraderie with like-minded people is such an integral part of really enjoying music, and it’s a shame that some are too afraid to go.
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PREORDER What Are YOU Doing Here?
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Neat shit.
Very interesting interview. My favorite part was about the black media treating “black” as a marketing and cultural brand, rather than being about the people. That, and the idea of “acting black,” have always puzzled me (as a white male). It seems kind of self-destructive. Even worse was that she was rejected from those organizations because of it. My German forebears certainly had an easier time assimilating since they looked more or less like everyone else, but assimilating still seems to be the wisest move, on a macro level. Maybe?
“He felt that the hardcore scene should be a ‘white male-only’ space because it was the only place where they didn’t have to think about women, minorities, and could escape from the horrible, horrible oppression that white men face every day!”
I’ve heard a similar thing about Christians being unwelcome in metal.
If you like this, you might be interested in The Black Girl into Heavy Metal, a blog with a pretty self-explanatory title. She doesn’t post nearly as often as I’d like, but it is interesting to read her take on such things.
Thanks for the link! One to add to my GReader, definitely.
Ha! The “acting black” concept is so obvious to me, but I don’t think I have enough words to properly explain it to someone who has no idea. Maybe the truth is we’re still working out what it means ourselves.
WELL DONE.
This is an awesome article and raises some really interesting points especially regarding the socio-economic factors that surround metal!
“We have to go beyond writing articles that simply criticize men or focus on a specific sexist incident within the scene or on something a clueless male journalist has written– it does nothing.”
It’s nice to hear a woman push back publicly against the torrent of feminist blog articles that ascribe broad behavioral patterns to men on the basis of the author’s anecdotal experience. Not that men are terribly well-behaved on the whole, but pieces like the recent Mother Jones post below (which claims that condescension, and running one’s mouth when one doesn’t know much about the subject at hand, are “gendered activities” practiced by men) do little to improve gender relations:
http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/08/problem-men-explaining-things-rebecca-solnit
Oh, Doug, are you mansplaining why mansplaining is wrong? That’s… all kinds of levels of ironic.
The genius of “mansplaining” is that it allows you to write off any disagreement from a man with “oh honey, you’re mansplaining!” Kind of proves the point that condescension isn’t gendered. Ironic indeed!
There are many kinds of privilege-’splaining. Mansplaining is definitely one of them, as SOME men do seem to love assuming that the women they talk to are clueless airheads. There is also (for example) white-’splaining, where white people love to boo hoo hoo about “reverse racism” and tell POC why that thing that is totally racist is, like, totally NOT racist, because, well, you’re biased, aren’t you?
That Solnit piece (actually from 2008, reprinted recently by MoJo) struck such a chord with readers because the phenomenon she describes is so wide-spread, and so instantly recognisable. I have been mansplained to, many times, at work, in shops, online, at metal gigs, in bookshops. When she put it down on paper, I read it and had a lightbulb moment. Reading that it IS a thing and I am NOT mad for noticing it was very valuable to me.
Does it really hurt you to admit that many, many women have encountered a mansplainer? That even if you would never do it personally, that many, many men do go out of their way to mansplain?
There’s a wonderful precept I love to return to when reading articles about social justice: If it’s not about you, don’t MAKE it about you. I, as a very sheltered white girl, had to learn this lesson when I started reading blogs written by POC about the pervasiveness of white supremacy. “But I’m not like that!” I wailed to myself. “Don’t I deserve a cookie for not being like that?” Short answer: no. Long answer: Aw hell no – if you’re reading an article about really damaging acts other people carry out, you don’t get a cookie for not doing them. You get the silent reassurance that you’re not acting like a total shitheel, and that is (or should be) more than sufficient.
If you’re not a mansplainer, that’s great. But please don’t pipe up and tell us that your fee-fees are hurt because some nasty woman is saying that ALL MEN ARE EVIL (when this is in fact not what the nasty woman said, not remotely – reread the Solnit piece and you’ll see that, hopefully).
Mansplaining (and white-’splaining, cis-’splaining, TAB-’splaining etc etc ad nauseam) is a thing that happens. It is a gendered behaviour. If you want to deny this, fine, I can’t stop you, but I can tell you – gently – that you might want to consider the possibility that you are wrong, and that your male privilege has insulated you to many, many difficult realities which exist in the world. Including the phenomenon of mansplaining. That’s all!
The tone you seem to have gotten out of his comment isn’t the tone I got out of it. Your first two paragraphs here seem like the right response, but what comes after seems to have read in some butt-hurt to his comment that wasn’t there.
I don’t know if I read the same comment here, because nowhere did I see any attempt to explain away “mansplaining.” Someone can’t see the forest for the outdated feminist agenda.
Rhetoric using terms like “mansplaining” drives me absolutely insane. It binds a behavior to a single sex which is totally counterproductive to the feminist movement. Isn’t that what women trying to escape? The “gyndescension” posted in response to Doug’s comment makes a nice case for dismissive behavior on both sides. Feminism isn’t just about equal rights for women. It’s fundamentally based in broader gender equality. Just as women have the right to be intelligent and assertive, men have the right to have “fee-fees” (good job on that one there, by the way. That was SUPER productive and not even remotely condescending. Keep it up, sister girl.). Thanks for the valuable contributions to the feminist movement.
Do some men tend to condescendingly correct women about issues regarding which they (the men) aren’t terribly well-informed? Of course. Did the article about men who run their mouths at women get a lot of people to say “hey, yeah, that’s happened to me!” Obviously.
But, as Laina says in the interview, “it does nothing.” (Incidentally, her comment that “writing articles that simply criticize men or focus on a specific sexist incident within the scene or on something a clueless male journalist has written” “does nothing” seems pretty unambiguous to me, but maybe she misspoke?) As I mentioned, I find articles of this sort to be epistemologically suspect, but more importantly, they’re much better at inciting undesirable bickering than they are at furthering gender equality or speaking the truth.
Speaking of which, are you really trying to convince me to come around to your point of view? I think that we tend to broadly agree on these issues, but implying that I’m some sort of baby whose “fee-fees” have been hurt seems designed to provoke, rather than explain.
@Caroline, I’m saddened but not shocked by your (oh-so-cleverly disguised!) But What About The Men comment. You may not have noticed, but I did actually clarify that lots of kinds of privilege-’splaining are possible and indeed endemic; I talked first about mansplaining because, er, that’s the one Doug brought up.
Mansplaining is a thing that happens and I am comfortable with the idea that Solnit’s excellent essay cogently lays out the main reasons why it happens. If you disagree, that’s great, you’re perfectly entitled to do so, but I think you are wrong, and I won’t shy away from saying that.
As for articles which set out the idea of mansplaining (and cis-’splaining, white-’splaining etc etc etc) as being somehow “damaging” to the feminist movement for gender equality: I think that you are wrong to say this, and that you damage the very cause you say you espouse when you dismiss these articles. Counterpoint to your opinion: the many, many men who have read Solnit’s essay and said, “wow, that really articulates something I was kind of half-aware of before in a really clear way” and “thank you for setting it out in such easy to understand terms” and so on. Not five minutes ago, a male tweeter was RT’d into my feed saying how much he appreciated the article. You can find other positive reactions to the article all over the place, if you bother to look.
I used the term “fee-fees” because I was/am annoyed, and I don’t see why I shouldn’t express that. I believe that the concern trolling in Doug’s initial comment more than justified my slightly salty response. You disagree. Fine. I don’t care.
Finally: “outdated feminist agenda”? Because we live in such a post-feminist society, right? And all the stuff Laina talks about in the interview is, like, so totally not relevant any more? Riiiiiiiiiight. How I wish I could share your little rosy bubble.
I think Doug’s comment says it well . . . he is in general agreement with you, but lightheartedly/amusingly indicated that this “mansplaining” is basically equivalent to dismissing something as “mansplaining” (or can be). You took it more seriously, and much further, than I thought he meant.
@Jo, feminism isn’t outdated. Certain ways of dealing with it, however, are. There’s fighting back against genuine misogyny and trying to start a productive dialogue, and then there’s hiding behind the perspective that declares that men fundamentally don’t understand and are unable to. You can’t have a productive discussion when the only way you’ll accept a man’s perspective is if he says, “gee, you’re right.”
I suspect we’d agree on most of these issues, but your positioning, and maybe this isn’t how you meant it, paints this issue as totally black and white. I’m really sick of encountering that type of feminism. It’s unnecessarily combative and deliberately polarizing.
One thing we would both certainly agree on is how needed and valuable Laina’s book is, not only in metal, but for all women in music. Her articulate and thoughtful responses, both to Kim’s questions and to these comments, are more of the types of discussions we need to have.
Comments deliberately attacking someone’s point of view based on what’s between their legs are … pointless. Stop condescending and maybe people will have a less violent reaction to what you have to say.
DOUGIE, YOU GOT SOME ‘SPLAININ’ TO DOOO.
Agreed; While I’m certain neither Doug nor Full Metal Attorney mean to, (and I realize they are likely not racists or misogynists in daily practice), each have committed one of the easiest mistakes to make; attempting to explain to the “underprivileged” what they should do to be more acceptable to themselves, the “privileged”.
Some will argue that due to individual and anecdotal circumstance neither of them count as “privileged”, so let us just clarify that privilege is a relative term and applies to (in this case) power dynamics specified here as Male/Female or White/Black.
I sincerely appreciate this and the other female perspectives that have been posting recently. I also hope this is part of a series of articles that will continue to address the racial element of Metal Culture.
Oh, and another point: I don’t think that Laina is “[pushing] back publicly against the torrent of feminist blog articles that ascribe broad behavioral patterns to men on the basis of the author’s anecdotal experience”. I think that’s what you wanted to read into her comment. I’ll ask her, anyway.
It is that, intentional or no.
Wow, I’m stepping into some murky waters here! I was, in some ways pushing back against the torrent of feminist blog articles, as my thinking is, we can complain when men / male writers are condescending in relation to a troubling issue that is presented by a woman, women then doing the same thing is wrong. I do not think that ALL those articles are based primarily on broad anecdotal experience – but some are, which leads to writing a subjective rant, not an objective piece. And yes, I have done it myself in the past in responding to a post that was offensive to women in metal.
There is a sense that women are not as intelligent or too emotional to grasp certain issues, and yes, that is offensive, but yet the most annoying experiences I have had have come from other women. I’ve been compared to younger, more inexperienced white women metal writers and been told that maybe “they can teach me a few things.”
Perhaps I am still wrestling with what I was conditioned to believe as a child, that there are these natural and innate commonalities between women, which leads to this general understanding and compassion, but we need to look at our own ways of responding to things before we can make sweeping generalizations about men and male writers who have written awful articles. This is not meant to say that problems like of mainsplaining are not valid issues but that there has to be more constructive ways in combatting it.
For male AND female writers who write stupid, insipid shit and get their articles published, it was made available for public consumption for a reason – look at their editors, their publishers, or perhaps the forum where the article was published. Did they publish it because they believe the general population agrees with the writers sentiments? Was it to draw traffic to the site? We need to look at their silent acceptance of actually putting it on the site, magazine or other publications. Those are the people who don’t give a shit that we should be worried about.
Thank you <3
THIS. This this this this.
Thanks for chiming in, Laina.
Your point about the benefits of running this sort of article is accurate. The fact of the matter is that provocative rants, regardless of the kind, drive traffic. I wonder what percentage of the motivation for writing such articles comes from genuine belief, and what percentage comes from a cynical desire to stir the pot and rack up clicks and retweets/reblogs.
Ah, you mentioned what I refer to as “girl on girl crime”. I am no stranger at all to misogyny in the metal scene. And a lot of the worst of it has come from other women. Yet another thing nobody wants to talk about…
Lol.
It’s amazing how much ideas get recycled in progressive circles. Without even reading the article, i bet they’re complaining about a phenomenon called “mansplaining” that i first heard about on some lame blog that was dedicated to whining about how women aren’t into hard sciences enough. See, when a woman says something and a man doesn’t agree and wants to explain why he doesn’t agree, he’s being a misogynist and he’s “mansplaining”.
I don’t think it’s ridiculous to notice differences in patterns of behaviour between the 2 sexes ( or genders or whatever). We are part of the animal kingdom and it’d be pretty much amazing if men and women behaved totally alike. Of course, there exists variation within the male and the female population, so it’s normal that you will find females acting in a more typically male fashion and males acting in a more typically female fashion. But that doesn’t change that we are 2 sexes and that our spectrum of behaviours, while they obviously overlap, are not interchangeable.
I don’t want motehr jones to pretend that there are no diff. between men and women at all.
rather, I’d like the progressives to challenge is the unspoken assumption that a more male style of arguing is a bad thing. If men tend to be more assertive and more willing to contradict another speaker, is that *really* a bad thing, in all circumstances ? One can’t think of contexts in which it’s useful for people to be able to aggressively confront ?
Though i don’t expect them to challenge anything. Progressives love to exhort everyone else to challenge, problematize, contextualize, etc etc but they’re not too interested in applying the skepticism to their own discourse.
Great interview. As a white, self-described “feminist” metalhead, the bit about feminism’s failings when it comes to WOC (and other oppressed groups) is uncomfortable to read, but undeniably true.
The part where I’d respectfully want to add something to Laina’s words is here: “women need to stop being part of the problem and start being constructive in the solution if we expect to see any relevant changes” – I’d bring up the apt adage ‘hate the game, not the player’. The game, of course, is patriarchy, and dismantling the whole oppressive structure is the only way we can all win. Women have a part to play, of course, but we can’t kill off patriarchy by ourselves – unfortunately!
A great interview, and this book is sure to get people talking and thinking.
Jo, nice post. I also identify as a “feminist”. As Ms. Dawes does not, I did not for many years- I felt the larger movement did not speak to me for various reasons (though my reasons were different from hers). But I wholeheartedly agree that one must “hate the game, not the player”, and this sentiment- particularly as it applies to the metal community- is what brought me around to proudly calling myself a “feminist”.
To me, feminism means choices- both for women AND for men. Choices mean freedom, choices mean equality. Choices should also be appreciated for what they are and that means that we have to respect the choices others make even when we would not make them ourselves.
With all I’ve stated above in mind, I find myself yet again having to point out that the term “groupie” is denigrating to women and harms us all. I understand its usage here and what it was meant to convey, but I really wince when I hear it coming from other women.
Already looking forward to having this tome in my hands come October!
Same
It’s going to be super-useful for my dissertation, I think.
Bravo Laina!
great interview. annoying question – will this be available as an e-book anytime? i’m kinda over paper as a thing.
followup – does more money end up in your pocket directly pre-ordering via bazillion points or from amazon? (i’m guessing from bp)
Good interview. It always makes me cringe when I hear stories that bring to life the redneck/racist stereotype of metal heads. They’re out there, and they make us as a group just as vulnerable to misleading stereotypes as any other group. It has been my experience that redneck/racists at a metal show are rare, but when you do see them they aren’t nearly as “metal” as most others in attendance. When/if you encounter someone like that they are about 1,000,000 times more likely to be wearing a Pantera shirt than an Opeth shirt. Not a knock on Pantera. They’re about as metal as it gets. It’s just that your average redneck out looking to start a fight at a show is probably just wearing the shirt because of the rebel flag/pot leaf, and couldn’t even name every member of the band. The metal heads I know and meet at shows strike me as people very accepting of other cultures/genders/sexual orientation/etc.
Rednecks and racists are not the same thing.
This was a fantastic interview (love I.O.) and Laina’s replies are amazing. My eyes teared up when I read that people would actually throw beer bottles at her or call her names at a metal show (or anywhere). It’s un-fucking-believable. It’s as if no progress in society has been made. I am also really curious about which musicians would not look her in the eye. Who are those disgusting freaks? As a woman who loves metal and who is over the age of 40 (like way over the age of 40), I encounter some funny looks sometimes when I go to shows. Mostly it is along the lines of “Oh, does your son play in one of these bands?” And as a writer (both professionally and for my blog) I am sometimes not taken very seriously by my subjects (I write about engineering during the day and metal at night–talk about a male dominated world!) It takes guts to prove who you are and that you have a right to be anywhere you choose and enjoy anything you wish. I commend Laina for pursuing this topic and exploring it and will be interested in the ensuing discussion. Maybe Tavis Smiley or Michael Eric Dyson will want to interview her! Let’s hope so.
I can’t wait to read the book.
What a fantastic interview! I never even considered that hostility from the black community for enjoying metal would be an issue. This was really eye opening. I am kind of appalled that this racist attitude prevails in the underground today, surprised probably isn’t the right word, but I don’t think I ever actually appreciated how much of an issue it still was. The questions were good and your answers were very well thought out.
Thanks for being such a gracious, fascinating, and thought-provoking interview subject, Laina.
<3
Not to trivialize the issue – but I’ve often fantasized about starting an avant-garde extreme metal band with Grace Jones as the frontwoman. I’d just let her do whatever she likes on vocals and work the music around that. Scoff all you like; I bet it wouldn’t end up sounding like Soilwork.
this was an excellent read, looking forward to the book.
“For What Are You Doing Here? interviewing Skin from Skunk Anansie and The Family Stand’s Sandra St. Victor were huge, because I admire both of them.”
would like to request she interview caller of the storms from BLASPHEMY.
PLEASE.
Metal is a music of resistance and struggle, and it makes perfect sense to me that it would appeal to people from historically marginalized groups. That said, I find Laina Dawes’s explantions for why it’s primarily been the domain of white males to be pretty convincing. Here’s hoping it doesn’t stay that way. Even setting aside politics, metal as an art form will only benefit from bringing in more perspectives and influences. The so-called “purity” so many in metal celebrate is just another word for stagnation.
Anyway, very much looking forward to the book. Everything I’ve bought from Bazillion Points has been well worth my money.
“metal as an art form will only benefit from bringing in more perspectives and influences.”
It may or it may not. How do you know for sure that “diversity” will result in better metal music ?
The famous black metalheads that I can think of didn’t inject any kind of diversity into metal. They grabbed a torch passed to them by their white forerunners, did their thing for the advancement of metal and then they passed the torch to their followers, who were probably mostly white since that’s the main metal demographics.
I don’t see any problem whatsoever with metal being mostly a white man’s game. I’m a black guy but i never felt that it was forbidden for me to play that game. The scene is overwhelmingly white. So what ? Why is an overwhelmingly white population always assumed to be a problem ?
I like all that european stuff. I love all that germanic, viking stuff. Who else is going to write about that convincingly, if not whites or nonwhites who feel a strong affinity to white/euro topics ?
If the metal scene becomes more diverse, so be it. But i’d rather it happens in an organic way rather than as a result of people thinking that there is something *intrinsically* wrong with being all white or majority white.
Would anyone dare to say that the soca scene, the dancehall scene is too black and not diverse enough and that black people in the soca and dancehall scene are enjoying priviledge ? Of course no one would dare say something that ridiculous.
Finally, it has happened in history that a music genre got created by one group but that another group ran away with it.
So, to the nonwhites who want “diverse” metal : go ahead. Start metal bands and try to become bigger than the original metal scene, if you can. Just stop asking white metalheads to go hide in some corner so you feel more “safe” in metal or something. It’s undignified, imho.
When and where did anyone ask “white metalheads to hide in some corner so [they] feel more ’safe’”?
I don’t think that not expecting to have bottles thrown at you in exchange for attending a show of a band you like is the same thing as whatever it is that you seem to be trying to describe.
What the interviewee described is surprising to me to tell you the truth. I’ve been involved in my local scene for a veery long time and I’ve never faced anything even close to that, even at shows where a lot of NS people were in attendance.
As someone mentioned earlier, it seems that at pantera and slayer shows ( the really big stadium shows) you’re more likely to encounter people who are petty criminals and other types who don’t care about going to jail for assault, than at an underground DM or BM shows.
In any case, I’m not at all advocating a metal scene where violence against nonwhites is the norm. I’m fine at shows and I’m treated as a fellow metalhead. My voice is that of the few nonwhites who aren’t asking for the metal scene to treat them like frail little things that need reassurance and safe spaces. The metal scene that I know might be a very eurocentric space, but it’s not a threatening space to me, so no need for a safe space. Just wanted to let it be known that not every black metalhead feels like the interviewer. variety of points of view and all that etc…
facinating perspective. i’ll be gett’n the book.
Thank you very much Mrs. Dawes. I thoroughly enjoyed reading the article and I look forward to buying the book when it’s out. Bazillion Points is easily the best publisher of Metal related books ever so far and this looks to be a fine addition.
I guess it’s the result of subliminal suggestion, but after opening this page I had the sudden urge to listen to a female fronted Grindcore/Deathgrind band. Unfortunately I don’t have any Nuclear Death on hand so I made do with Bolt Thrower (which is better than “make do” should imply). Still, if anyone can help out by suggesting some Grindcore and Deathgrind with female band members I’d greatly appreciate it.
Regarding Metal and Race I think there are some interesting aspects that as Americans we’ll (I can’t quite comment on Canadian demographics) be experiencing in our near to distant future. First, as one can observe in Sam Dunn’s documentary work, Metal seems to have quite a different standing ground in South America, India, South East Asia and the Middle East. South America has already become a corner stone of the global metal community and these other nations/regions seem to be constantly growing. So it certainly seems Metal on a global scale is becoming less and less white (not to say it’s not even still overwhelmingly a North American and European thing, but the trend seems to be heading towards far more diversity than ever before). Having lived in Los Angeles for a little while now certainly has made me personally aware of what a huge Latino presence there is in the South California scene. There are even some shows where I think at least by a slim margin white people are the minority. I can only imagine in the long view this will be felt elsewhere in the United States as the Latin/Hispanic population grows (and apparently at some point this century may out number the white population).
Reading the comments section has been interesting, as it always is on the internet. To add my own two cents, I take a lot of these matters (as a result of what I picked up in my college days) that include human behavior and behavior between genders under the lens of sociobiology. It would seem some here think gender behaviors are purely a cultural phenomenon. I wouldn’t deny culture comes into play, but I think our scientific understandings today show that’s not absolute. Rather, biology/genetics/natural selection does enter into the analysis of human behavior. The process is to examine what behaviors or cultural traits have any dependence on an evolutionary adaptation or not, then further examine how human culture developed (evolved as in cultural selection, like natural selection) on the bedrock of what our genes provided. Understanding human behavior through this process will give us a good enough understanding of what would be necessary to preserve or change certain behaviors on a group level. This has all sorts of implications since within this century I’m sure we’ll have procedures to even change behavior and other traits through genetic engineering.