Confession time: Moshing annoys me. Kerry King is thundering towards my apartment to confiscate my metal card even as I type this.
I don’t object to moshing in principle. I did more than my fair share of it as a teen, but its appeal has faded for various reasons. The biggest is that it tends to interfere with the listening experience of concert-goers who would rather get close to the stage just to see the band better. Nowadays, I am one such concert-goer.
IO reader DieByTheChord summed up my feelings nicely in a comment on last year’s MDF decompression thread:
“I understand it’s healthy to release some aggression and that this music is a good outlet for it, but the unrealistic spatial demands of it render it as an inherently selfish ritual that penalizes anybody who just wants to get a remotely good view of a band.”
If moshers were to mosh in dedicated Free Speech Zones , it’d be fine with me. But as things stand, getting close to the stage often means that my focus will be compromised by my efforts to defend myself. I’m a good-sized guy and I’ve never suffered a serious injury in a pit, but even mild pits are distracting. It’s hard to let songs fill my headspace when I need to guard that head against swinging fists.
. . .
I have always assumed that this opinion puts me considerably outside of the norm in the metal world. Moshing is a time-honored tradition in metal culture; thrash bands in particular have written many great songs about it. Clearly, I am a grouchy old man who hates fun.
. . .
Anthrax – “Caught in a Mosh”
. . .
People occasionally push back against moshing’s desirability. Cosmo routinely mentioned that he isn’t a fan. Aaron’s recent IO piece on scary shows drew a reader response full of unflattering stories about mosh violence. And Kevin Stewart-Panko blasted the practice outright in a Metal Sucks post earlier this year. Many commenters there chimed in to concur.
But such examples of anti-mosh sentiment are few and far between. They are also liable to draw a backlash of their own. Stewart-Panko’s piece garnered applause, but also plenty of comments involving words like “oldfag” and “pussy”. Bands are complicit too—”mosh harder, you pansies!” is an old stage-banter chestnut. And moshers will often forcibly ‘encourage’ others to participate if they don’t feel that the rest of the crowd is engaged enough. Try politely asking a mosher to stop moshing and see what happens.
“Moshing = good” appears to be the consensus in the metal world. But perhaps this consensus is false. Under certain conditions, a handful of noisy zealots in a culture can establish an unpopular idea as the norm. The political scientist Elisabeth Noelle-Neumann called this process “the spiral of silence”, which would be a pretty cool band name.
The zealots punish skeptics who speak out against the idea, thus encouraging silence from the majority who oppose it. If the zealots can maintain this silence for a substantial period of time, the majority may come to believe that most of their fellows actually support the unpopular idea. In turn, skeptics sometimes start to imitate the zealots in an effort to blend in.
I wonder if the “moshing = good” consensus comes from a spiral of silence. Some people obviously love moshing, but many do not. Perhaps people who dislike moshing really are the majority. Perhaps they fail to speak up because they’re worried that someone will call them pussies/un-metal/false. Or perhaps they simply think that nobody agrees.
. . .
There are ways to defuse the spiral of silence. One way is to discuss the norm in question on the internet, which imposes a technological limit on the ability of zealots to isolate and punish skeptics.
That’s where you come in. How many of you out there take issue with moshing? I’d also be interested to hear why pro-moshing folks support the practice. (“That’s just how things are/should be” won’t cut it.) Think of this as a straw poll; if the readers of this site overwhelmingly love moshing, I will accept my status as a fun-hating oldster.
. . .
Header picture by Jesús Figueirido.
As a teen, I really enjoyed moshing. Not that I ever made it to a show at the time (I grew up in a very out-of-the-way small town) except for one local band whose lead guitarist was in my class. But at every high school dance I managed to get the DJ to play “Enter Sandman,” and a few of us always made a small pit, before the school authorities broke it up (which happened the first few times, but then I think they gave up). I got into the pit at my first few shows when I was 18-20, too.
As I’ve gotten older, the appeal of moshing has decreased. HOWEVER, I completely disagree with you. Look, if you just want to listen to music, then just listen to music. If you want to see a band, buy their DVD. A show is about much more than that. It’s about the community experience, and the pit is a huge part of that. Let them mosh.
Definitely gotta side with my Attorney above.
As a dude in my late-20s, I agree with you that I rarely get into the pit anymore, and can get kind of pissy when the same two dudes keep shoving me as they goose-step around a circle throwing shadow punches. More so, I really, really dislike it when bands pull the whole “Mosh harder” routine–this form of dancing should be an involuntary reaction to YOUR awesome music.
But that’s the point–it should be INVOLUNTARY. For many of the kids in the pit, moshing is their chance to blow off steam that would otherwise come out in unconstructive ways, fist fights and such. I’d rather have some sweaty dude keep bumping my beer than mug me in the parking lot. And while it sucks when a few dudes try and force a pit, a) if you shove bakc or hold your ground, they usually leave you be, and b) often those guys have gotten me so fed up that I dared to dive in, and found that a good night of thrashing was exactly what I needed, but wouldn’t admit to myself until it happened.
Obviously, I feel your pain, especially at metal shows where moshing is totally unecessary or hardcore shows where kids use the pit as an excuse to crowd-kill motherfuckers. But at the end of the day, it’s a cathartic act, and the “zealots” behind it are usually just people trying to get their yayas out. As cliche if it may sound, if you can’t take the heat, you eventually have to get out of the kitchen.
This made me think of something actually, stemming from the “involuntary reaction” part.
What perhaps this column should be saying is not “Moshing is bad”, but instead that certain folk should take a long, hard look at themselves and ask why they’re going to shows.
Because I do believe a certain proportion of the audience goes JUST to mosh to loud music. Who it is is often an ancillary concern.
Now, of course they won’t go to someone they dislike, but what I mean is that they aren’t really paying attention to the band actually playing anyway. They’ve gone their to VOLUNTARILY mosh.
Often, as well, it seems to be that they’re going to “mosh” simply because they’ve heard that it’s the “done thing” – which has led to several mildly hilarious occasions of idiots attempting to “open the pit up” just as a song ends, or drops into a quiet part – exposing them as the attention-seeking idiots they are.
Sure, its about “a community experience,” but it sucks being literally squashed while breathing hot low-oxygen pit air to get a good view. You cannot go take a piss and come back. Impossible. Piss in a bottle. Wait not enough room or stability to piss in a bottle. Stand there for hours getting abused or see some ants play.
Ever been to non metal shows with nice crowds? the very front may be a bit “fuck you this is my spot” but you can actually leave, come back, stand with friends, sit down, dance, and smoke wihtout a problem.
I’ve never been a fan of moshing either.
I think it’s actively harming the scene these days. I, for one, just don’t bother going to as many shows as I would like to because I know that at a lot of venues, I’m going to be stuck choosing between standing somewhere in the back with a lousy view wondering why I bothered or I’ll be spending the whole night dodging the antics of drunk muscleheads.
These days, with everyone downloading instead of buying albums, live shows are one of the last things keeping bands going. If the pervasive attitude really is that you should only go to a show if you want to jump in the pit, that’s locking the silent majority out of the scene, turning down their money and support.
Your comment is taking the position I stated a little further than I intended. What I was trying to say is that the show is a community experience, and moshing is part of that. The article makes it sound as if he’s just there to watch the band, period, and while that’s obviously a big part of the show, it’s not the only thing.
I’m not sure where this whole “silent majority” attitude comes from, it definitely feels as though nearly all of my ‘metal’ friends enjoy a good pit, or even if they don’t get in it, will understand that is part of a metal show, it’s been a part of metal shows for about two decades now.
For my part, it was the coolest thing when I first started going to shows, and the novelty’s mostly worn off now, but I still love jumping in if I’ve been having a bad while or something.
Where else can I go and shove a stranger and throw fists at the air and have everyone be okay with it?
I understand that those bro’s in the pit who knock themselves into people just to be belligerent are a problem, but they’re the exception to the rule, and if you want to be left alone, grab them, throw them to the ground, and they’ll probably avoid you the rest of the show.
It’s a matter of recognizing that a lot of people love doing this, and a lot of people love just being there to listen, both sides annoy each other from time to time, but you’re at a metal show, have fun and get over it.
You missed the point… Everyone is not okay with it.
everyone who is IN the pit already is obviously okay with it, that’s what I meant, not everyone at the show
Good topic, good question. It very well may already be obvious to you, but your statistical population present on IO won’t give a representative sample. I think we definitely skew old and other myriad ways biasing against an interest in moshing. E.g. if we assume a large intersection of IO and Decibel readers, Decibel readers are primarily interested in grind and doom (Cosmo’s tongue-in-cheek analysis), and grind and doom are not conducive to moshing, then inclination would be disinterest in moshing. (Don’t bother picking apart my judgment that grind is not mosh conducive–moshing to 240 bpm is just retarded.)
That said, I’m old and on scale of 1-10, dislike moshing as an institution at a 8. I appreciated it very much as a teen, as part of the ritual bonding with the community. But there’s a chicken and egg there–as a teen I bought into that *possible* spiral of silence, and assumed that this ritual was the best way to bond.
People were moshing at shows in 1986, that’s over 25 years ago. Can’t we come up with a different dance to do?
ALL RIGHT, YOU PUSSIES, YOU KNOW THE DRILL! I WANT TO SEE YOUR LEFT FOOT IN, AND THEN I WANT TO SEE THAT MOTHERFUCKER BACK OUT, AND THEN I WANT IT IN AGAIN, AND THEN SHAKE THAT BITCH! SHAKE IT ALL ABOUT! AND THEN…WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO!
One of the coolest things I ever saw as a kid was a girl (on whom I already had a crush) doing the twist during a hardcore show.
That’s it. I want Scab Casserole leading all my hokey pokeys from now on.
Personally, I count myself resolutely in the pro-pit camp, even though I rarely mosh myself anymore (FWIW I sustained a very, very dangerous injury in a Cannibal Corpse pit once, and my doctor more-or-less told me that my elbow will not survive another fall. My joints are more valuable than moshing to me).
From an anthropological perspective, I see the issue as thus: moshing has a really important cultural role in metal, and that station should not be abandoned. Look at human history: we dance to music. That is our nature. If you remove moshing, OK, but something else must replace it. Music appreciation should be expressed physically.
I do not mind dodging mosh bros. I find it entertaining. If the band requires an intense head-space, often people do not mosh–there is not a pit at every show, or maybe that’s just my experience. And when they do, if I’m actually frightened I appreciate it. I listen to metal in part to be frightened and unsettled–why shouldn’t the show do the same?
i think Andy really nailed the real issue on the head: a select group of assholes ruining the fun for everyone else.
I think YOU ruin it for everyone else.
All joking aside though, bringing in the demographic angle, those self-same ass-hats (do people still say that? It amuses me anyhow.) either won’t read this article, or if they did read this article (or even one more directly addressed at them) would be very unlikely to look at themselves and re-evalaute how they act.
Instead you’d get the classic responses of:
“Seems like a YOU problem, not a ME problem”
Or better yet:
“Ha, those IO pussies are just jealous of my mad pit skills”.
For me, it’s been a while since a band really PULLED me into the pit involutnarily, but I appreciate it when it does happen.
Being an old guy who’s been going to concerts since ‘88 I can safely say that the moshing thing has really gotten past the expiry date for me. And sad to say, the moshing back then and up until the late 90’s wasn’t as … filled with douchbagery as it seems today. Back then it was more of a communal thing, now it seems more like “every man (and occasional woman) for himself”, with no respect for your fellow concert goers.
I also do not like moshing. i did not like make a secret out of it, but as well did not yell at everyone that i do not like it either. at a concert i try to find a place where sound, sight and ” safety from moshers” are at an optimum and from there i watch, listen and enjoy the band playing. even though a guy with closed eyes, crossed arms and almost no movement does not look as enthusiastic as a mosher.
Just want the internet needed: a grandiloquent treatise on moshing.
You are the problem.
Mosh or be moshed, buddy.
I am generally pro-moshing if the space and the crowd is right. I feel like a bit of controlled violence breaking out is a natural outcome of the band and audience are having a nice intense connection. Mystical frenzies are surprisingly common in loud, rhythmic music. Also in a room/venue with a reasonable human density, an audience member can find a spot with a good view on the other side of the meat shield surrounding the pit.
It’s when that meat shield isn’t present that moshing is a problem. Pits need a border. People who want to fight need to recognize when there aren’t enough other folks around to form a protective circle to keep them penned in. I like the excitement and loss of control that comes from being close to (and occasionally shoved into) a pit. For me it’s cathartic. So I stand around it with my arms up and feet planted. If you see enough people ready to do that, awesome. Mosh to your twisted little heart’s content. If you start flailing around and everyone just backs up or runs away, you aren’t in a mosh-friendly crowd and you need to give it a rest for one night. You’ll be fine.
Doug, you know where I sit on this, but I’m weighing in publicly: I don’t mosh anymore, and probably never will.
I don’t care if people want to mosh, but I don’t want to watch it, I don’t want to play mosh goalie, and I don’t want prime real estate taken up by the pit. They don’t need to see the band to mosh. The pit always seems to form right behind the 2-3 front rows, pushing most of the crowd back or to the side. Move the pit away to a special playpen area and let them have it.
Because rules and boundaries are metal!
You’re an attorney, and that’s your retort?
Metal has plenty of rules and boundaries, one of which is criticizing that sacred cow, moshing.
When did ruining other people’s show going experience become metal? Perhaps all the rules of civilization should be tossed out the window when we attend a show. Then, truly, we could rejoice in the unfettered freedom that is a metal show.
“You’re an attorney, and that’s your retort?”
In this case, I think satire got the point across so much better than a 10-page brief.
“Metal has plenty of rules and boundaries, one of which is criticizing that sacred cow, moshing.”
See above.
“When did ruining other people’s show going experience become metal?”
Indeed.
I can’t reply to Full Metal Attorney directly for whatever reason. But this is an awesome response:
As the old guy commenting, moshing was a much more accepted form of expression in mainstream grunge/alt rock. People old enough to remember can recall that someone died in a mosh pit at a Smashing Pumpkins concert prompting them to no longer allow GA pits at their shows, pushing moshing strictly into a more underground metal movement in the late 90s. I’ve been to quite a few metal shows, Pantera 5 times, Slayer 3 times, Black Sabbath 3 times, White Zombie 3 times, etc and everytime I’ve found that pits are violent and dangerous. I’ve seen people have their life beat out of them in pits. I had a friend with someone else’s blood splatter on him from a fight in a pit. I’ve seen broken arms, broken noses, broken jaws and cracked skulls. To say moshing is just part of the scene is absurd and part of the reason why I was pushed out of the scene. I grew tired of fighting for my life against skinheads and drunk assholes.
That’s kind of bass-ackwards. In the ’80s, pits were underground, originating in the punk scene, IIRC, but working their way into metal once thrash reared its fugly head. Then grunge and alt/metal broke and pits came into the mainstream. Before tough guy bands like Pantera and Danzig* were discovered by fratboys, things were different. I didn’t see assholes pointing out and punching kids in the pit until Pantera’s Vulgar Display of Power (I’m sure it happened occasionally, but at some point people too stupid to understand “friendly violent fun” invaded and it became more prevalent). On the other hand, after 1991 or so, I had way less bottles thrown at my head while hicks yelled “faggot!” at me from their pickup trucks, so it’s a mixed bag.
* Nothing against Danzig, but the video for “Mother” sucked in the jocks like flies to a pile of shit.
I think it’s an age thing. When people are young, they mosh (or, as we called it in my day, “slam-dancing”) because they have a ton of energy and a ton of frustration to get out of their systems, and they bounce back pretty quickly from most injuries.
Over time, people realize they’re hurting longer after less time in the pit (or sustain more serious injuries), and/or realize that they don’t remember how good the bands were (or don’t even remember the bands) because they were too busy moshing hard to actually enjoy the music. Or maybe the degree to which it’s a formalized ritual rather than spontaneous bothers them. Or maybe the number of assholes who don’t know or care about some level of pit etiquette make it less fun. For whatever reason, as people get older, moshing takes a back seat to just trying to enjoy the bands.
So then you end up with all of the older fans just trying to actually pay attention to the bands and enjoy the music, and younger fans wanting to jump in the pit. Eventually those young fans become older fans, and new young fans take their place. I spent enough time in pits when I was younger, and I was lucky – the worst I ever got was a couple of chipped teeth from an elbow to the mouth – but as I got older, I realized I wasn’t young or crazy enough to keep doing that, and wanted to actually pay attention to the bands and listen to the music. That, and there were enough instances of people trying to start pits at absolutely inappropriate shows that I just got fed up with the whole thing.
I don’t know that having a designated pit is a good idea, because that makes the whole thing even less spontaneous, but yeah, the fun-hating oldsters oughta be able to enjoy the show too. Fuck, I don’t know…whatever happened to just headbanging? I mean, damn.
Like most oldsters, I don’t care for it or do it anymore…but coupled with yesterdays post, maybe you guys should start sticking to arena shows where other old guys pretend it’s 30 years ago, and prance around posing while lasers shoot out of a monster and no one offends anyone by doing anything different or new or involving movement other than an ego ramp (or wheelchair ramp).
Or maybe you could enjoy the show from the bar where there’s usually better sight lines, and quit whining about something that’s not likely to change anytime soon…either way, writing about it is just a smidge more boring than commenting on it.
You can do better than this.
I think.
That you took the time to comment on how boring it is to comment on something that bores you implies you’re more interested than you’d like to pretend.
This is a good topic and while I definitely understand the anti-mosh viewpoint, you’ll have to count me as a pro-mosh vote. I have a similar story as J. Shafer above. I didn’t see a Dr or anything, but the last time I was in a pit it was at a Cannibal Corpse show, and I nearly had my front two teeth knocked out by the back of some dude’s skull. Not him being a dick, just me being in the wrong place at the wrong time. At that time I decided I was getting too old for pits (I’m 30 now). I’ve seen Cannibal Corpse since then and this time I got a great seat on the balcony of the venue. Sure I felt like an old man, but I enjoyed that show way more than the one where I had to stop and go to the bathroom and make sure all my teeth were still in place.
That said though, the thing that got me into metal in the first place is the energy it creates. While that’s not the only thing that has kept me listening to it, I recognize energy as the main reason I got into metal in the first place, and if I noticed that all the kids suddenly stopped moshing, I’d have to ask… what has happened to metal, and what’s with these kids today? Sure it can be annoying if your at a venue where the only good spot is right in front of the stage, but to paraphrase a poster above: If you just wanted to watch and be completely left alone, maybe you should just buy the live DVD and watch it at home.
Moshing for me is a very, very gray area. I always think there are good pits and there are bad pits.
Bad pits for me are for shows that have a more mainstream crowd, usually full of people who don’t go to shows that often and don’t know what pit ettiquette is. Those are the kinds of shows that I avoid anyway, the ones that have small town hillbillies who only go to those shows to cause trouble, overprotective boyfriends who won’t let you pass cuz they feel the need to shield their girlfriend from everyone, meatheads who will just mosh to any band that’s onstage, or just about any show with assholes with alpha male tendencies. Needless to say, the more mainstream the metal, the worse the pits are. Just look at how bad pits at Ozzfest or Rockstar Energy Drink fest are.
Now I’ve gone to shows where the pits were gnarly, but they were so fun to be in. Most of the shows I go to that actually have fun moshing are DIY shows. I don’t feel threatened when people mosh at DIY shows since these are mostly metal and punk kids who further retreat underground and away from meathead bullshit. They’re having fun, these totally rad dudes and dudettes, and they usually walk away with a huge smile on their faces while being respectful to other people at the show because they can and know how to have fun minus all the bullshit that a mainstream show has. These same rad dudes and dudettes are the ones you would see headbanging along and drinking beer when non-mosh inducing bands like Neurosis or Sleep are in town. Meatheads are too dumb to go beyond what Revolver Magazine or whatever shitty liqour or energy drink company out there recommends to them anyways.
I was recently in a pretty gnarly pit at a show, Hoax played a space the size of your living room. It was fun and I had a great time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPDV8bf-gnE
http://www.flickr.com/photos/carmeloespanola/sets/72157630293388756/with/7445807868/
I’ve never thought about what standing near the stage would be like without the possibility of a mosh breaking out. The two go hand in hand.
But it’s cool when a band’s frontman says something along the lines of “all you people, move up to the stage. pit, move to the back.” I’ve heard it several times this year already.
Like many I dabbled in moshing when younger. I had a bit of a pit scare at a festival where I went down and literally could not get up for about 30 seconds. Visions of trampling went through my 18 year old head. I’ve backed off mostly since. But I do get a kick out seeing some pit dudes do their thing. I wear glasses and I aint about to be the rec specs goggles with headstrap kinda dude at a show, so this limits me as well. The big thing is maintaining your stance while being on the fringe of the pit. Some pointers:
1) Keep your feet about 2 feet. Put your lead foot forward next to or facing the pit. Keep your back foot firm at a perpendicular angle. This makes you ready to absorb a sudden lunge.
2) Push the dudes back firmly – but don’t be a total dick unless said jagoff is recklessly or repeatedly flying into you.
3) Protect little guys/gals. I always feel this is my obligation at a show. You see the little 17 year old or the girl at the show. God bless them for coming. They don’t need to get killed. Take the blow for them or at least help keep them upright.
The “separate, cordoned off area” for moshers is interesting. Now I know most underground metal is set in shitty clubs, former porn theaters and the like – meaning we take what we get – but here are the two venue elements that would make everyone happy:
1) an actual circular “pit” for the moshers. It’s recessed into the center of the audience floor about 4 feet down with a railing around it. Go nuts down there, you aint pushing anybody up here. We hang over the edge and watch you – giving you the attention you want as a metal gladiator.
2) most important of all: meat locker strength air conditioning to actually overcome the heat from the stage lights, pressing bodies and mosh activity. How many people don’t go to a show JUST BECAUSE it’s too damn hot? Can you imagine going to a packed metal show – even in January – and being completely comfortable?
I guess I am getting old. Ahh, fuck it.
I haven’t been actively in the pit at more than a handful of shows in the past few years. The closer I get to 40, the easier I end up with my back all fucked up the next day. At the same time, for metal to remain metal, for punk to remain punk, if you can’t handle the pit, stay the fuck back. Otherwise, metal is just another genre of indie rock. When my family comes to one of my shows, or my calmer friends, they stay out of the pit. Nothing wrong with that.
This, I have a major problem with:
I’m 5′6″. The only way I get a good view of the band is to either shove my way all the way up front (sweaty and a guaranteed set-long workout), or stand at the back of the pit, gently moving along those who bash into me and watching the band. Tall people up front is inherently selfish and penalizes anybody who just wants to get a remotely view of the band. The pit is the exact opposite.
Another ammenda about the pit-in-the-back theory. Good diea, but think practically: the only thing more dangerous than a mean pit is a mean pit IN THE DARK E.G.:that last meshuggah tour. holy shit. terrifyingly dark. The only safe place to do this is in the well-lit center. that is where it belongs, just perhaps–as far back as the pit can be lit.
The best reason to move the pit back, for me, is that I only recently got into stage-diving, and holy shit is it fun! but it requires a meat cushion…
Personally I hate being up front, craning my neck to get a good view of one musician’s ankles. My favorite place to watch IS right behind the pit, where everything in front of me is clear enough to watch moshing or playing, depending on which is more thrilling at that time. Plus, with my face in open hair, i keep pretty cool. I gladly play goalie for those reasons, I just don’t pit anymore unless it’s a circle, or a skank beat.
For me, moshing is always a spur-of-the-moment thing. I haven’t yet gone to a show with the conscious idea that I’ll get in the pit. I enjoy it when I do decide to jump in, but it’s annoying when two drunks jump about randomly and force the rest of the audience (who just want to listen to the music) to retreat to the sidelines. Most of the venues I’ve been to thus far have been quite small, so the two-drunk pits can be a problem. I agree with the author that pits can be distracting when you just want to listen to the music. It would be ideal if pits were a bit more contained, thus allowing both moshers and non-moshers to get what they want.
The two-drunk pit (well put!) appeared in an early draft of this piece. They’re even more selfish than regular pits, but also kind of hilarious. Two-drunk pits are perhaps the only variant for which grabbing the participants and screaming “STOP MOSHING!” can work.
Culo pits are always gnarly/fun as fuck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwrUiKfibCs
It’s definitely a young person’s game! My opinion is ‘let the kids have their fun.’ I did it when I was 15-22 or so, and I don’t want to be the grumpy old guy objecting to kids not enjoying a show the way they want to. Reality is I usually hang by the bar at shows anyway, as I’m too old to push my way upfront for 3-4 bands!
Much like you stated in the article, I feel like I’ve grown out of the mosh pit thing. As a teen I jumped into every pit at every show and felt that if I did not enter the pit I should never have gone to the show in the first place. It was like a given to me. Heavy music = heavy pittage. It’s not that I didn’t appreciate the music or that I wasn’t attentive to it… On the contrary, I felt that the pit and the movement was a reaction to the music. It feels natural.
When I saw Anthrax (Belladonna reunion), I could not bear just standing and watching. I felt the need to move. I pushed back from the stage, forcing myself through the crowd into the big thrash pit in the middle. It was a circle of benevolent violence and camaraderie. “Indians” came on. It felt right.
That show would not have been one of the greatest shows I’ve ever witnessed had it not been for the wild crowd.
I tend to stay out of the pit now, because I’m generally uncoordinated with my pit movement and feel that if I swing or flail too hard that I’m going to have a lawsuit on my hands. I get into the music and feel like punching someone in the face sometimes. But, I must refrain. So, the most I’ll do, if there are people already loose and moving, is push someone—with a look of disgust and anger (if the music calls for it).
Moshing is fun when you’re 16. When you’re older it’s just a tad bit creepy. However, I’m all for it and understand why people do it.
First, allow me to clarify that I was joking about putting moshers in a cage during the show. Perhaps RSJ was not, though? I love the term “mosh goalie” either way. Now then:
FMA: I go to shitloads of shows, but I’ve no interest in the “community experience”. I’m not there to high five the stranger next to me. Music just sounds (and looks) different live, in ways that can’t really be captured by a DVD or album. Moshing distracts me from appreciating those differences. It’s a selfish complaint, but moshing is selfish, too.
Kvlt as fvkk: From my perspective, it’s really just one side (moshers) annoying the other side (non-moshers). The latter can only express their discontent by, as you put it, “grabbing them and throwing them to the ground.” Which translates as…moshing. In my experience, shoving/grabbing/whacking moshers from the edge of the pit encourages people to run into you, rather than dissuades them. Pit justice doesn’t work.
Post-felix: Definitely aware that the IO readership is a totally unrepresentative sample that skews away from teh br00tal mosh. But if folks who read this site all think moshing is great, then I can be pretty sure that the rest of the metal public is supportive too.
Schafer: There are plenty of other ways to physically respond to metal that don’t involve aggravating half the people around you. I personally prefer headbanging.
Cliff and Astral: Age doesn’t have much to do with it for me. (I was just anticipating a plausible, and somewhat valid, reaction with the fun-hating oldster bit.) I’m in my mid-20s and fit. My quarrel is with the distraction, not with the rigor. Also, few venues I frequent offer good views or sound from the bar.
Carm: Interesting that you should mention Neurosis. One of the memories that triggered this piece was the moshing at all three Neurosis shows I’ve been to. Some dudes just don’t get it!
@ Doug
The last time Neurosis played in Chicago was in 2007. I was more annoyed by the people talking like it was an art gallery in the middle of the set. Luckily there was no moshing at that show, it’s not the time or place for that anyway. Ditto for when Sleep played in 2010.
I’m an average sized guy, I look normal for a metal gig, I’m not that intimidating- but you give even a big guy a good warning to back the fuck off once during a show and you show that you mean it- they usually will I find
@Doug
I wasn’t joking about moving the pit away from the stage into a special area. Moshing doesn’t require a view of the band. It doesn’t require taking up most of the best places to see a band. Moving the pit is not going to inconvenience the moshers, other than that they can’t just ruin people’s experiences at random. Like you, I’m here to enjoy the band and connect with the music. I want nothing to do with the purported community of a show. If I wanted to have a communal or party experience with music, I’d go to a Jimmy Buffett show.
Mosh goalie is the term I came up with after a Black Dahlia/Cattle Decapitation show with a particularly aggravating set of moshers. I’m not interested in catching moshers and throwing them back into the pit.
A bunch of anti-socials like myself going to a lot of shows? Weird.
I stand by my position, though. Moshing is a normal reaction to a lot of different kinds of heavy music, at least for kids, and an integral part of the experience. Trying to tell this group of people that they can’t do it, or that they need to do it somewhere else, encroaches on them more than they’re encroaching on you. I especially think putting it in a fence is a *fucking horrible* idea, because somebody’s head is going to get slammed up against the fence or they’re going to get crushed on it.
Also, what the hell kind of shows are you people going to that you can expect a specially-designated pit area and/or extreme air conditioning? What kind of venue has that kind of money? At an Anthrax show or bigger, I guess I can see that, but what a waste.
The part about cordoning them off is tongue in cheek. As someone else commented, bands themselves have asked that moshers move action back away from the front of the venue. I’m fine with that. A fence is crazy, but look at what you have now: a human fence and a surface that is rock hard. I’ve been to a show where bouncers surrounded the pit. Not sure that’s a good option, but there are ways to think this through.
As for the idea that moving moshers away from the front of the venue encroaches more on them than on me: no.
I didn’t say anything about them moving away from the front of the venue. My problem is with eliminating moshing, or designating a place for them, other than by band direction. I’m fine with the latter.
I do find it interesting that even in a forum such as this, which skews against mosh-friendly music, the moshing has more supporters than detractors.
I realized my phrasing isn’t 100% clear. I was trying to say that I’m fine with designating a place for moshing if and only if it is by the direction of the band. Otherwise, no.
I was ALWAYS in the pit when I was in my teens/20’s(38 now). I’m still very physically active and not against still hopping in…in theory. What really happens is I think “Hey! A pit!” Then I look in it and see a bunch of young kids spinning around, throwing blind haymakers and roundhouse kicks at each other and “Hey! A pit!” instantly becomes “Fuck this. I’m watching the band.”
Between this post and the one directly below there is nothing to add. Agree heartily with both.
This was a tired post the first time. This is the third time on this website that I’ve read some over-articulated diatribe that boils down to validating pit-fear, and the desire to make metal a safer place to be. I realize that’s not a popular opinion here, and it will toss sand in the shoes of the conservative metal heads on this website that rage against discomfort.
This is a site that intellectualizes metal music, which I love, it is why I am here. There is a lot to intellectualize. But let’s keep something very much in perspective, the very vital, very primal other side of the coin; metal was built on aggression. This element is so important. It’s easy to get comfortable when your primary relationship with heavy music is set in third person; blogging, pouring over lyrics and aesthetics. But those who choose to ceremonially act in accordance to that aggression shouldn’t be restricted because you don’t indulge in or respect the chaos. And let’s be realistic, barring a Bad Luck 13 Riot Extravaganza show, if you want to stand in the front, your worst case scenario is dealing with the pulsating rising and falling of the mosh tide as it presses you against the stage/barricade. Get over it. Don’t promote the neutering of certain aspects of this culture. I myself haven’t participated in a mosh pit for a long while, so I’m not coming at this with an angle of defending or vindicating my personal actions.
There is a massive, driving element of fear in this music, and I revel in the very real manifestation of that fear and intimidation when this music is brought to a live medium. It gives this music flesh and blood. It’s one of the things about this culture that reminds me that this is real, influential, evocative, and not just costumes, make up, and posturing. I’m brought back to the recent post on Per Ohlin, and what his suicide did to rip black metal from the realm of adolescent peacocking and catapult it into a very real dialogue. That may feel like a stretch in context with moshing, but I feel justified.
I realize that everyone appreciates this music in their own way, and not everyone covets the inherent violence of heavy metal music, and I could be accused of attributing far too much anthropological or ritualistic emphasis on the act of moshing, but what I think we can all agree upon is that the fundamental theme, mantra, lifeblood of metal, is power. Embrace that power and strength, celebrate it, elevate it, and buck up. Let the youth and bald dudes in Slayer t-shirts beat the shit out of each other. If that swirling mass of chaos and sweat really harshes your mellow that badly, and you REALLY need to get ten feet closer to that stage to enjoy the show but you don’t want to be bumped into whilst making the journey, there’s always YouTube. But if you plan on continuing a career in heavy metal show-going, loosen up, cherish that bruise, and don’t cry the next time someone spills beer on your brand new Grave Miasma t-shirt.
Damn. Well said.
Seconded.
Perfectly encapsulated argument.
yes, finally. end of discussion. this is fucking metal we’re talking about.
You misunderstand me, I’m afraid.
I played both football and rugby for years while growing up. Moshing is pretty tame compared to contact sports, and as I mentioned in the piece, I did plenty of it during my teen years. “Fear” has nothing to do with my objection to moshing. I love metal because of the music, not because of its culture or its ritual or the opportunity it provides to shove guys. I object to moshing because it’s an irritating distraction from that music. As Wraith says below, if you want to release aggression while listening to metal, put on your headphones and go to the gym. Or, y’know, start a band.
Also, it’s amusing that you accuse me of over-articulation and the proceed to take five hundred words to effectively call me a pussy and tell me to stop crying. And for the record, Grave Miasma is meh.
stick to your headphones and stay at home then. if you can’t handle a few distractions, why bother at all in such an unstable environment as seeing metal being played live? you might as well articulate an essay complaining about sound issues alone. (‘wah wah the distortion doesn’t sound the same as on record, this is way too distracting, its taking away from my selfish experience’). you asked for a counter argument and you got one. pussy.
“why bother at all in such an unstable environment as seeing metal being played live?”
Physically fending off a bunch of dudes all the way through a band’s set is far more distracting than most of the other things that go on at metal shows. Not sure what the comment about live sound has to do with anything. Stay classy.
This sounds like someone saying “I love rap, just not all the black people”
(joking, kinda)
If you’re citing my post on Terrifying Shows as ‘validating pit-fear’, you misread the piece entirely. That you’d generalize based on a gross misreading undermines your point. That article was about having fun with my personal horror stories from especially rough shows, nothing more.
I don’t care about a dumped beer but what about the dude who projectile vomited at an Ulcerate show recently after chugging a six-pack? He spewed over half the pit and some innocent bystanders and was being a windmilling moron on top of that…
I’m not a fan of moshing at all. The way I see it, shows are for music. If I want to be aggressive and blow off steam, I can always crank Absu in my headphones at the gym. But I don’t think a show is the place for that. It’s hard to savor the band playing when there are people careening towards you like animals, oftentimes knocking you down. I didn’t pay to come to a show to get hurt. I came to see a band perform.
Also, I’m deathly afraid of having any of my piercings ripped out, but that’s just me.
Thank god I’m mainly a doom fan, and rarely have to put up with this shit.
Although, at MDF, there were pits for Noothgrush AND Saint Vitus. Seriously. It was fun at times, but Noothgrush got kind of ridiculous.
I think I saw people crowd surfing during Electric Wizard and Godflesh, which was really weird, haha
I think it would be fun to start a circle pit at a Sunn 0))) show.
I saw Pentagram @ SXSW last year and there was a pit during their set, I told my bud Andy “this probably the most violent Pentagram set ever” haha
This reminds me of seeing 40 Watt Sun last year. They played immediately after Woe, so the contrast was sharp, to say the least. The frontman was not pleased with the clutch of grim black metal dudes sarcastically headbanging to his singer/songwriter music.
I saw people moshing at a Violent Femmes show when I was in college (hey, I went with a girl) and, on some level, that kind of ruined it for me. Sure did love getting into the pit at all-ages shows when I was kid though. Now that I’m in my mid-thirties, I’m usually content to headbang, drink a beer or three, and watch the people on stage play their instruments. But I certainly don’t begrudge anyone young or old who wants to mosh, just so long as no one’s being an asshole and punching people in the face.
My favorite moshing story is probably one time when I saw Unsane play at the Toy Tiger, a crappy now-defunct venue in Louisville mostly featuring hair metal cover bands and stuff like that. The overzealous security tried to kick some dude out for moshing, and Chris Spencer stopped the song mid-note to yell at them to leave him alone. Security backed off, and Unsane resumed the song (“Scrape,” if I remember correctly) right where they had left off. There weren’t many people there, but that felt like a real moment of community. Then again, that same guy was moshing basically by himself during the opening band (Bongzilla, filling in for Today Is the Day, who had to cancel because of their umpteenth line-up change), which, to say the least, was kind of strange.
so. much. wringing of the hands. this is a total non-issue. never once heard anyone seriously complain about this IRL, but i guess that’s what the internet is for, isn’t it?
Some of us were having a discussion on Twitter the other day about whether mosh pits should be banned, especially with respect to what’s happening with Lamb of God’s Randy Blythe right now. It’s funny, but many were in favor of doing away with the pit. I’m not.
I’m 5′2″ and I don’t like getting hurt, so I always steer clear of the pit. (Ironically, the worst one I was accidentally in was at an A Perfect Circle show). Because I’m so small, the two places I can actually see anything are 1) right by the stage or 2) in a balcony. I frequently opt for the balcony, because I like that bird’s-eye view of the event at large, but sometimes I like to be by the stage.
I’ve noticed that, for the MOST part, the pits have happened maybe 10 “rows” back from the stage, or even more, providing room for folks to be close to the stage without getting incidentally hurt.
I think it’s important to preserve the practice of the mosh pit, for those who want to do it. I agree it should be set back from the stage. I also think, if it’s not already in there, there should be a waiver/disclaimer agreement when people purchase tickets that if they’re hurt in the mosh pit or while stage diving, it’s their own fault, and not the fault of the venue or performer.
1. Someone else willing to admit they were at A Perfect Circle show?
2. Waivers and disclaimers aren’t all they’re cracked up to be.
Im sensing a whole lot of butthurt going on here. You dont like moshing, fine, stand away from it. The dynamic of a show makes it so that it gets more intense the closer you get to the stage. Do you complain when people are rushing to the front and crushing you against a barrier to see your favorite band? NO, you deal with it or you move, and if you think you can ask people to censor their reaction to a band so that you can hang on every note without interuption, you shouldve just stayed home and listened to the record. That being said, I applaud you for writing this because it provides all the people who love to mosh, and all the people who hate it because they were moshed by dicks, a great forum to disuss.
I’m curious what European folks have to say about moshing. It might be my mistaken idealization of the faraway Euro-zone, but I was under the impression there’s a lot less moshing happening than in the States.
From the Eurozone, probably not from me because I’m from Mauritius. So from here, from the small experience that I’ve had with metal concerts that are organised at random frequencies, there are more headbangers aligned near the stage than mosh pits forming and absorbing in by-standers like the black-holes that we are gifted to see through YouTube. When I was about 13, I used to run and march and head-bang somewhere near the stage and was oblivious to what was happening around, only to find myself almost alone at the end of the set with hort-haired people staring at us the few sweaty fuckers still yelling for more. Here, mosh pits are not that violent, except for the occasional falls where many hands instantly just grab you up to your feet. Ah yes, this is what you get in 100-200 crowd in attendance. I’m 35 now, and what I prefer now is to try to appreciate the musicians’ skills on display and not to comment too harshly.
As for being for or against moshing, well, here there is always enough space for everyone, so the level of “danger” is not that elevated. It’s all up to how the band gets our blood pumping and manages to maintain that level of intensity…
In any case, metal being such a cathartic, energy-intensive experience, it’s difficult to imagine some day that venues for metal performances will provide only sitting accomodation for those who are against moshing.
It’s somewhat different over here (UK) due mainly to the fact that we don’t really have ‘bros’ at the gigs. I think they’re still winging pints of piss over each other at the descendants of Oasis type bands in all honesty.
In Europe (Holland and Belgium, in my case), my experiences are way different. The more hardcore (as opposed to metal) the shows, the more fist swinging there will be – but things like windmilling or kicking at the wrong show are frowned upon by everyone.
I have never, ever in my 17 years of going to metal shows been bothered by the type of dickheads described in the earlier ’scary show experiences’ piece. That’s just awful. I suspect in Europe, if some douchebag would actually purposefully hit someone in the face, they would be tripped from the back by everyone else until they left.
I love pits, because in Europe, they revolve around a feeling of brotherhood. People pick each other up from the floor, smile and high five. A pit is a community experience, In its best form the experience becomes transcendent, euphoric, spiritual; and euphoria is doubled when it’s shared. Moshing is hugging.
You’re a pussy.
I don’t usually mosh but when suffocation did liege of inverscity I couldn’t help it
I have a love/hate relationship with moshing. Actually, it’s probably more a kind-of-like/hate relationship. I wholly appreciate the fact that the crowd is an integral part of the show, and when I’m up at the very front I truly do enjoy being a part of the collective swelling mass that adds this organic element to an abrasive, distorted sound. On some base level it makes perfect sense that as the music becomes violent, the crowd should follow suit, and metal is the perfect medium through which to channel such aggression. Not everybody is compelled or content to just stand there and bob their head.
What I dislike specifically about moshing is that, personally, when I’m at a show and there’s a band I really want to see, the degree to which I’m able to maximize my enjoyment of the set depends on my proximity to the stage. So, when the pit opens up and all of a sudden 5% of the crowd is taking up 30% of the venue’s (best) real estate, well, that seems pretty fucking shitty to me. It’s like somebody buying up several acres of a beachfront community, only to knock it all down and replace it with three houses all of whose windows face away from the shore. Maybe ‘wasteful’ would’ve been a better word than ’selfish’ with regard to the way the space is used.
Yes, normally there’s somewhere to stand on the periphery where I can still get a decent view and be close enough to really feel the collective energy*. In these cases I could care less what other people decide to do with their bodies (other people may feel differently), but when you’re at a show that’s already packed to begin with, that means that a lot of people who just want to watch a band that they like either have to constantly be on guard for flying people, or retreat to watch the show from a distance that may for all intents and purposes actually be less absorbing than watching the dvd (which I do not agree is a viable alternative to the concert experience).
Please note that I am not offering an argument for or against moshing here, just a summation of my opinion (which I fully realize sounds like a cranky metal head simply wanting to have his cake and eat it too). I actually agree with both Doug & Kyle here, and it’s really cool to see so many people weighing in with varying opinions from both camps. While I feel that moshing is an intrinsic part of metal (whether this is for a reason other than simply, ‘this is the way it’s always been done’ is another question) whose by-products I’ve already admitted to enjoying, it remains an element I find myself becoming increasingly annoyed with as I get older. It’s not going to keep me from going to shows – the closing of my local metal venue has already done enough towards that.
*Not intending to sound all new-agey here, but it’s an important part of the live experience for me.
My least favorite kind of moshing is the “hardcore unity” kind, you know what I’m talking about — a posse of huge knuckle-headed dudes who randomly gang up on the weak with their windmilling, karate-kicking bullshit (or worse, like when they have weapons). I’ve seen plenty of shows shut-down because of those assholes and I’ve missed some great headliners (Obituary, Entombed, Quicksand, etc) because these assholes decided to go ape-shit during their local opener.
My favorite form of moshing, and the kind I see least frequently, is the kind that grows organically out of enthusiastic headbanging. Watching Orange Goblin last year–one of the best shows I’ve ever seen–no one was “moshing”, it just wasn’t that kind of show. But the band was so electric every head in the room was banging, and the energy would eventually get us all jumping up and down. A handful of times we all wound up in a headbanging circle pit, but the energy was a million miles away from the pit at any other show. That, I can get down with.
Spinkicking and throwing blind haymakers has nothing to do with enjoying bands and everything to do with making a spectacle of yourself, to look hard in front of your friends. It’s overcompensation.
Honestly I prefer shows where there’s such a tight press at the front that there’s no real room for the moshpit. Watching Autopsy earlier this year was intense: about 1000 people crammed into a space for 600 (at the Echoplex), all fighting their way forward. I was right up against the front fence and felt the press of sweaty humanity the entire time, and it was great. There was moshing and stagediving, but it was more an outgrowth of everything that was happening than just a ’sick pit’.
Maybe the kids who start pits are just trying to summon that same energy that I get excited about, and that’s just the way they go about it?
I’m starting to think my idea of “moshing” is probably ten years out of date, so . . . well, I guess, what the fuck do I know about it? I thought it was just people running/jumping into each other bodily. I was vaguely aware of people punching and kicking and shit, but that’s not really moshing. That’s something else.
I still don’t think you can tell people how to enjoy anything, as long as it’s enjoyed in a genuine way. It doesn’t make them not dicks, if they are throwing punches. But who am I to tell someone to stop being a dick?
There’s all different kinds of pits, really. It used to be hardcore shows were the domain of floorpunching and picking up change and all that stuff, but there’s so much crossover in between fans and styles that it all bleeds together anyway. When you go to a mainstream show (I saw Slayer two weeks ago), the pit tends to turn into the worst of everything. At Death to All, there was a pretty violent pit for Gorguts, which is hard enough to headbang to, never mind mosh.
No one should establish rules for moshing; that’s the wrong approach. But it’s not inappropriate to ask if anyone actually enjoys it.
fuck moshing, it shows how retarded metalheads can be.
And here I thought you were bored with me.
who is this full?
It all comes down to context for me. Two of my all-time favorite shows are complete opposites with regards to crowd energy. The first time I saw Isis was on the Eugene stop of their 2006 headlining tour with Zombi and These Arms Are Snakes. After TAAS’ set ended, all the Northwest indie and hardcore kids vacated the WOW Hall, making room for my buddy and I to walk right up to the stage. At the time, Isis were my absolute favorite band, and their set consumed me from beginning to end. The few times I broke my trance long enough to turn my head, I saw a few dozen scattered heads nodding along with the music. Not even the double bass of the comparatively aggressive new preview tracks from the yet-to-be-released In the Absence of Truth could make this crowd muster anything more than slightly faster bobbing. It was a powerful, emotional show that I will never forget, both for my immediate proximity to the band and for the calmed vibe of those in attendance.
On the other end of the spectrum, I saw Converge in early 2008 at The Satyricon, which was Portland’s version of CBGB. Low-hanging light fixtures for swinging, an easily accessible stage for diving and a column placed in the middle of the standing area to hold up the sagging cieling that one adventurous kid scaled and performed a perfect backflip off of. We were close enough to the stage to enjoy the sound and see the entire band, yet a few people away from the pit at all time to avoid any stray fists or elbows. Dudes and gals were retreating from the pit at regular intervals nursing split lips, black eyes and a few more serious injuries. It was the single most violent show I’ve ever seen, and I enjoyed every minute of it because it fit the aesthetic Converge present. Can you imagine those two shows being reversed, with everyone losing their shit to Isis and zoning out to Converge? It wouldn’t fit.
Now, one example to support Doug’s argument: A few summers ago I saw Cynic on the SF stop of their Decibel Hall of Fame tour. The sound at Slim’s is hit or miss, so I made sure to be in the perfect spot to hear Paul’s leads because, you know, I’m not going to miss the solo on “Veil of Maya.” A few songs in, pushing and shoving commences behind me and pretty soon a pit forms. To Cynic. Really? Aside from the demos and “Uroboric Forms,” is their anything in their catalog that’s mosh-worthy? The thought that ran through my head was a paraphrasing of one of the Germans in Beerfest, “I remember my first metal show, too.” When positive, beautiful music triggers your inner violence simply because their are distorted guitars, *now* you’re being selfish to the majority of people who just want to watch the individual performances and absorb the notes. If that makes me a fun-hating, bitter mid-20s oldster, fine by me.
Ugh, *there.* Still too early to type.
Re: to Cliff’s comment below: there was definitely spin kicking and karate chopping going on during Converge’s set, and while I usually hate that stuff, it seems almost compulsory at a chaotic hardcore show.
Honestly, after reading through all of this, I think it breaks down to a single question:
Are you starting/in the pit because the spirit moves you, or because it’s something you’re supposed to do at shows?
It seems like most of the time, pits of the first type are good, wholesome, aggressive fun. Pits of the second type are dominated by idiots and muscleheads. When it’s an expression of community, you’re more likely to have people watching out for each other, picking up people who fall, and not taking the action out into the watching crowd. When it’s ritualized, or an obligation, that’s when you get the stupid , self-absorbed spin-kicking and floorpunching and people-punching, and those are the ones that tend to ruin shows for everyone but the knuckleheads.
I remember two specific instances of the latter: I was at a Blake Babies show (the absolute mildest of 90’s indie pop), and this kid came up to me and said “do you want to start a pit?” Like it required permission or a vote or something. Then there was a show (I forget the band, but it was not something you’d mosh to, think 90’s Boston noise-rock, like pre-ISIS type stuff), and one kid decided he wanted to start a pit. The rest of us pretty much got out of the way, but eventually this yahoo made his way to the front (where I was standing), flailing around like an idiot before doing a fucking handspring and catching me under the chin with his feet. He wasn’t trying to start a fight, he wasn’t singling me out, he was just that oblivious to everyone around him. Fuck that shit.
Not a fan of moshing either, it has a time and place at for example a Slayer concert or what not. But what I feel has gotten completely out of hand is inappropriate moshing. For example, I consider moshing to say Black Sabbath or pretty much any non-”extreme” metal band pretty silly. The worst instance I ever saw of the inappropriate mosh was a bunch of teenagers beating the shit out of each other in a mosh pit to some generic indie band.
I don’t even think it’s a particularly Metal thing: I will always associate it more with Hardcore punk than Metal.
I think the “moshing” we see at allot of shows is more of people just trying to hit each other as hard as possible. But I think they idea of a moshpit as a more of an aggressive communal dance, where people run in circles or sway around and bump into each other is fun. But when it becomes just people hitting each other as hard as they can not even to the beet of the music, it just becomes pointless. If someone wants to go fight someone why dose have to be at a show?
If we were using this thread as a yay our nay vote on moshing, I believe the yays have won out. Like it or not, it is a cultural, (and at least somewhat) communal activity. Even those who say they hate it admit to having partaken in moshing in their younger years. If a bunch of old farts make a bunch of no-moshing rules, it would make the entire genre less attractive to the ONLY group of people enter it: the youth.
But it is what it is. It’s a totally imperfect method of celebrating an art form. It can be intrusive, rude, and sometimes infuriating. But by and large, most metal fans are aware of this and try to make it as bearable as possible for non-participants. Almost always, you’ll see that ring of people at the perimeter of the pit pushing people back in. Again, not a perfect way to isolate a pit, but it is a method to keep the show bearable for all. And everyone who has been to a metal show and has half a brain knows the rule: if you see someone fall, pick them up. And I think that’s about as civil as it’s going to get. But I like it how it is. And sure, lots of times I’ve seen assholes who are just out for a fight, but you’re likely to see that at any rock/metal/country/rap/pop show regardless of whether there’s a mosh pit involved. Pretty much any event that involves young people and alcohol you’ll see some violence at some point. I don’t think the pit causes it, but it is an obvious place to point the finger. Douchebags are everywhere, not just in mosh pits.
Doug M.: while I understand and appreciate your argument, I believe you may be a “fun-hating oldster”
“if the readers of this site overwhelmingly love moshing, I will accept my status as a fun-hating oldster.” -Doug M.
Yup, that seems to be the case! Fortunately for me, I already knew that I hate fun.
Thanks for participating, everybody.
Metal is almost like the Olympics at this point. Once you hit your mid-20s you’re ready to hang up the uniform and watch from the stands. As long as the venue has good beer on tap and decent sound, I’m alright with that.
Who coined the term ‘moshing’, the same dude who came up with ‘hesher’?
I’m so old that we used to call it slam dancing and only the punks did it. Metal was all about the air guitar and the head banging. This older dude I know, used to call it pogoing.
Either way, it started in Britain, and the LA punks perfected the violence component of it, until the jocks and the skins ruined it for a while. So, metalheads complaining about it don’t get my panties in a bunch. Anwyas, now its just a bunch of old farts, karate kicking youngsters, and ‘moshers’…whateva.
I’ve always understood that HR from Bad Brains came up with the term. Either way, my tastes lean more towards doom stuff now, no pits at those shows really. Though it would be hilarious to see a circle pit to the tempo of YOBs “Mental Tyrant”
I think everything I could say about this has already been said.
Where are you going to shows where there’s such a huge mosh pit that you can’t hear or see the band from outside its perimeter?
I don’t agree with your position that moshing is an act that arises from some sort of ideology (though it IS reinforced by ideology). I believe it to be pure, violent expression. You don’t need to be a veteran in metal (or hardcore) to see the cathartic appeal. Where else in the real world can you safely (for the most part) push and shove people around, and more importantly, be pushed and shoved? Being thrown to the mercy of the mosh pit is exhilarating.
In many cultures, “music” and “dance” are synonymous and indistinguishable. Listen to this Hatred Surge track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2fV9jy8T9A It’s practically designed for moshing. I’ve seen people mosh to it quite a few times IRL. They can’t help it. When the energy inside you, stoked by the crowd and the band, rises to a level beyond head-banging, what else can you do?
Attempts to remove moshing from metal shows would be dishonest to the vitality that metal brings out in people. The best thing you can do is educate people on how to mosh safely. Pick somebody up when they fall, don’t throw people in the pit that don’t want to be there, etc.
I love moshing personally. I was unfortunate enough to have suffered a serious knee injury at a down show,however, so my moshing days are close to nil now. To this day when I got shows though I still can’t help but look at the pit and feel a mixture of jealousy and joy. One thing moshing wasn’t a metal thing punk gave birth that beautiful baby.