. . .
Recently I came across a blog post that articulated something I haven’t been able to articulate myself. The post was by ATMF, an Italian record label specializing mostly in black metal. The topic was the alleged National Socialist leanings of Disiplin, a noise act on ATMF. That particular discussion wasn’t interesting; it was the usual tempest in a teapot that arises around NS-related music.
What was interesting, however, was the following digression:
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We’re strong supporters of what we like to call the “Burzum pathway of Black Metal” when ATMF is holding its rendez-vous.
From our point of view Burzum has been the point of fracture between an eminently Satanic way to conceive Black Metal (see e.g. Mayhem and their “De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas”).
Satanism and related subjects from our point of view are only contributing to carry on a Christian way to see the world by being part of it and playing the antagonist part. A view of the world we totally reject from the very base.
Then comes the way that Burzum opened up, the one we value the most. A way that if developed further finds its base upon a view of the world and spiritual values absolutely out of the Christian illness. And before someone starts out to cry running possessed by paranoia we’re not speaking about any biological race superiority. Figures. Scientific “truths” come and go, and that one is filling one of many spots available in the graveyard of “theories considered once true” of modern Science.
. . .
In short, Mayhem = Satanic view of black metal, Burzum = non-Satanic view of black metal.
As an atheist, I’ve long felt uneasy about supporting anything Satanic because Satanism is so intertwined with Christianity. Of course, different flavors of Satanism exist, and some might posit things like, “there is a Satan but no God” or “Satan and God are the same”. I haven’t cared to explore these minutiae, though I guess if different schools of Buddhism interest me, then maybe so should different schools of Satanism.
I don’t necessarily believe that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” – see, e.g., Democrats and Republicans. Just because a cross is upside-down doesn’t mean that I’m happy, because there’s still a cross there, and in my worldview, all crosses are false. I don’t like to support false things. Black metal interests me on other levels (musically, aesthetically), but spiritually black metal does nothing for me. Music doesn’t have to be spiritually fulfilling for me, as the world carries other sources of spirituality. But when something establishes spirituality along Christian/Satanic lines as its core, I can’t buy in 100%.
Now, this issue doesn’t really bother me. In everyday life, organized religion is much more of a threat than raspy vocals on a limited pressing of 666. But I do despair at the lack of critical thought in metal. Atheists and Satanists hold fundamentally opposing views. That doesn’t mean they can’t co-exist. In fact, they should co-exist; co-existence is one of civilization’s higher achievements. But just because we wear black t-shirts with undecipherable logos doesn’t mean we’re all on the same team.
. . .
My opinion when it comes to worrying about what other people think is that the “trve” black metal viewpoint on such matters is to listen to whatever music you want with no regard for the opinions of others, including the people that made the music.
I read the satanic imagery as taking the adversarial role to religion (and specifically christianity only because that’s what we’re burdened with up here). If someone then wants to go on and start taking that imagery seriously as a spirituality in itself, then fuck them, I don’t buy into their shit. Same thing with Burzum and Vargs idiotic ideas. I don’t share his world view, but I’ll listen to his music nonetheless. His ideas mean nothing to me, just like him and his life means nothing to me. The music speaks for itself.
My thoughts exactly.
If I can listen to old bluesmen or folk singers singing about how Jesus saves, I can listen to guys praising Satan or whatever.
I for one do not listen to burzum, ive always been conscious about not supporting a band or person who advocates hate.
burzum is basically creating a pseudo religion with fricken trees that speak, what the deuce!!! eurocentrics have been at this for a long time ie white men who pose as native americans or even going as far as claiming that they were an american indian in some past life.(bullshit)
these people are all over the damn place, and there is a label for them and thats “batshit crazy”, whats really sad is that you get all these confused white boys who look up to this kinda figure (varg) to feel a sense of empowerment, identity, and a sense of belong.
people think for yourself, if you do subscribe to this mans ideology then what he says will be absolute in your life which is madness, this is a convicted killer who is most likely to reoffend.
There’s a lot of things about this issue I’d like to talk about, but first I’ll make two points.
A. “Scientific “truths” come and go, and that one is filling one of many spots available in the graveyard of “theories considered once true” of modern Science.” This statement I find quite troublesome. Again it sort of hints at a generally anti-science stance, which is always rather hilarious. In particular it touches on an old argument that science always changes and therefore why trust it. In truth scientists and philosophers of science have responded quite well enough in showing that science is a exponentially progressive path for knowledge, not a flip of the table every time. To quote Isaac Asimov (an actual scientist and philosopher of science, not just a Science fiction writer) “when people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together.” Further hilarity can be found in how Varg would probably disagree with the writer from ATMF. In writings and interviews, Varg was pretty clear that he actual has an atheistic and scientific world view (though obviously misinformed on some parts, like genetics and biology). He claimed belief in the gods is not needed because the gods are real/true, but rather the gods are necessary to provide some bedrock for a society. This is similar, in a turned around way, to statements some people made in the 19th century where they admitted “God is dead”, but for the masses/the unwashed of society to not panic (and the whole show fall apart) belief in a supernatural force (really a belief in purpose and meaning greater than the individual) was needed.
B. Burzum is hardly the only root of non-satanic Black Metal. Obviously Bathory went for the Viking material by the late 80’s and Enslaved did so as well not too long after. Further Ulver and Immortal went in different directions as well (Emperor to an extent too, though more so with later material). Another matter in understanding certain types of “Satanism” might focus for example on certain statements Gaahl from Gorgoroth made regarding the apparent paradox of his Satanism and Paganism. Gaahl called his Satanic belief the hammer, which is used to to destroy christinaity (how realistic that is in achieving ones goals, is the individual’s perspective). The Paganism would be the metaphorical seeds sown in the ashes of the churches. Again, like Varg, this issue touches upon one of Nietzsche’s main problems he exposed about the modern world. “In a world continuing to distance itself from a religious bedrock of understanding, what is there to replace it without allowing society to fall into nihilism”. Such nihilism could certainly be pointed at in the wanton excess of modern capitalistic society. Tying this into the current American situation, one can read how the Neo-Conservative school of politics admitted this to be a real problem and resolved for the need to push in the public consciousness a sense of national and religious identity to prevent such nihilism through the image building of the USA as the chosen nation of a Judeo-Christian God. Obviously, Nietzsche (and others like Varg, Gaahl and so many others) would see this as the wrong path to take.
Sorry for this offtopic question, but:
“To quote Isaac Asimov (an actual scientist and philosopher of science, not just a Science fiction writer) … ”
I knew that he was a scientist and that he wrote some popular science books, but could you point me to some of his texts about philosophy of science? I’d really like to see them.
yanyo gave a good link below. Asimov never published a book that would fall under the library section of philosophy, but in quite a few articles and texts he wrestled with the implications of what science is (methodology, assumptions, the history of science and how to approach modern issues in science).
Scientific truths “come and go” by design. That’s how science is supposed to work! The nature of scientific truth is that is open to refinement, enrichment, and, if necessary, correction.
I do like a lot of black metal. Im also dubious about “satanists” and equally the spitual pagan black metal path. i find it interesting to a point, but there’s no coherence at all in black metal, so mostly its just posturing,. Euronymous was essentially an obnoxious metal nerd, with some serious inadequacy issues. Kristian Vikernes was a bipolar hyperactive idiot. With Burzum Varg stumbled across a novel black metal aesthetic constructed mainly from cheap cobbled together materials. He was hanging out with the right people at the right time for this to appear groundbreaking, BUT he got lucky. Essentially his world view changed all the time from Satanism, paganism, racism, Nazism to this white supremacist folkish drek he spouts now. Musically Filosofem was Burzum’s most interesting release, but the rest of it is frankly bullshit. Mayhem’s De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas is definitely their best release. But after most of the band departed, one way or another, they reverted to cheap theatrics. The fact is that neither Mayhem nor Burzum represent anything like the “trve” pathways that people make out. They were there first, yes, but they were full of shit then and full of shit now. The upside down crosses are all just props in black metal. Varg is a cunt, about as spiritual as my little toe. So what Im saying is this whole “pathwys of black metal” gives the creators of the scene way too much credit in a discussion about religion that’s retarded from the outset.
“I’m…dubious about ’satanists’ and equally the spiritual pagan black metal path.”
Definitely. From my perspective as an atheist paganism is just as absurd as satanism or christianity, and downright ludicrous when shotgun wed to ideological racialism as asinine as Varg’s.
Thanks, Cosmo, for addressing this issue. I have always been deeply troubled by people’s annoying habit of oversimplifying things, or identifying what they don’t understand by using terminology that describes what they (in their limited experience/knowledge) can relate to. Just like if some kids shot some other kids in school, and they listened to some bad, scary music, but the news people did not recognize the specific music they listened to, so they substituted other musician(s) which the public already knew and associated with scary music.
The news and descriptions of any of the antics of the Norwegian BM scene (if arson can euphemistically be referred to as antics?) invariably brought cries of ’satanism’ or ’satan-worshipers’ because those reacting to the events saw an an evil deed and automatically attributed it to the only source of evil in their narrow world-view. But the real reason that was claimed by the perpetrator(s) — ‘we burn the churches because we reject the whole of Christianity which was thrust forcefully upon our culture’ — would indicate a dismissal of the satanic aspect of that religion just as much as all the rest of it.
I saw two possible schools of thought here, and both are true in different cases. For some, it really is a rejection of religion altogether, and both its ‘good’ and ‘evil’ incarnations. These are not likely to be understood by the news reporters or the public, and therefore are painted with the ’satanism’ brush for simplicity.
But then there are those who merely want to rebel, to be a non-conformist, to go against the status quo, merely out of a childish (some might say ‘teenage’) desire to simply be contrary. To these, whether actually young in age or perhaps not having grown out of such ideas regardless of age, the concept of satanism would seem appealing as an alternative choice to the mainstream norm.
Put much more simply, the difference is this: while some might see the world is in love with the hero Batman, they say “What is so great about Batman, I am cheering for the villain, hail The Joker!” In the same circumstance, a different individual might just say, “Fuck your comic books.”
This might have been an interesting argument if there were actual satanists in heavy metal. Let’s not get carried away: no one in Mayhem is a religious practitioner. Behind this (not specifically relating to Mayhem) pompous buffoonery, eager posturing and high school sophomore rhetoric is fuck all substance, and least of all an inclination for any variant of consistent religion. These are heavy metal bands playing music for bored suburban white kids.
I’m a Christian so a lot of metal lyrics make me a little bit uncomfortable. For some reason though, I’m fine with pagan lyrics that are just as anti- Christian as some other bands. I don’t only listen to Christian metal or anything. But when deicide starts singing about killing Jesus it feels pretty awkward.
Also I don’t listen to Burzum because I have a really hard time dissassociating ( I spelled that horribly wrong) a person from their music. If I know somebody to be an ass in real life, I can’t enjoy their music.
I’m intrigued (perhaps annoyed is more accurate) by the commenters who paint teenage rebellion as childish. I guess you are all right-wing conservatives of some sort of another, traditionalists? There’s a long history of the next generation turning the symbols of the previous generation around to examine them, just like an artist will look at his canvas in a mirror to gain a new perspective. Dismissing rebellion against the established norm as childish seems terribly ignorant to me.
I doubt there are very many people who play metal who actually believe the shit they are talking about. That’s not the point, though, and only a simpleton would think that someone shouting “Hail Satan!” actually is hailing Satan. The point of turning the cross upside down and pretending to worship the devil is to mock the idea of worship in the first place.
“The point of turning the cross upside down and pretending to worship the devil is to mock the idea of worship in the first place.”
I like this. Sadly though, I’m not sure if everyone in that scene is doing it because of the irony.
I hear you on youth rebellion being dismissed by an older generation too. That said, I genuinely find the murder, homophobia, racism and arson surrounding the early days of Norwegian black metal to be pretty disgraceful. That wasn’t a rebellion I could support as all the targets for their hostility were completely wrong.
Yep, I agree completely. Sadly, humans as a mass seems geared towards group-think and herd mentality. The metal scene is no different from the rest of society in that regard.
@krig that’s a valid point. I didn’t mean to imply that a childish dismissal of accepted values is the ONLY reason one might embrace the satanism tag. In my comment it might have sounded that way, but I only meant it as one reason – albeit a common one. You are correct though when you say it is often employed symbolically, as a mockery, and surely this was the original intent with some of the originators of black metal when adopting the imagery and symbolism. I was mostly referring to later followers, who might not have caught on to the sarcastic or mocking tone.
I think we’re in complete agreement at that. Also, I’m sure there were plenty of people involved from the very beginning who didn’t get it either. There are always more followers than leaders.
@krig I know a lot of the bands with satanic lyrics aren’t actually satanic I was just saying that as a Christian those lyrics make me a little uncomfortable and I prefer bands with non-satanic lyrics.
A gimmick is a gimmick is a gimmick…
I think that the “spiritual” concept that surrounds black metal is also misleading, in that it means people won’t actually pay attention to their music. Some insist that it’s fair to lump Alcest into the same boat as Mayhem just because when they listen they hear a darkness… the problem is, the “darkness” of Alcest is nowhere near the darkness of the genre that most find appealing (this isn’t even getting into the fact that Alcest is very, very far from black metal itself).
I don’t listen to black metal myself, but I had an experience where someone read too much into my presence at a post-bm gig; assuming that I listened to the music with the same rationale as he did. I told him that I didn’t, but what annoyed me the most was how he seemed unable to analyze what he was hearing – insisting that it was all one and the same.
I personally don’t see the merit in this, as Dornenreich is not the same as Anaal Nathrakh.
*insisting that “post-bm” and black metal were all one and the same, that is.
Some go in for the “nihilist ideologies” that they believe black metal represents and think that it’s thus spiritual fulfillment to listen to it; others don’t care and just listen because they love it whatever their beliefs are. It’s the former that’s interesting, as it could also be part of where all this “transcendental black metal” mess comes from.
(Sorry for the harsh words, but that’s how I feel.)
Can I just say that as a 36 year old university educated life-long atheist, I’m sorry, but I still find Satanism pretty fucking cool.
Aesop Dekker made a good point when he wrote:
“…Graveland doesn’t reflect my worldview any more than Star Wars, Manowar, comic books, or anything else I may find enjoyable.”
(although I disagree with him on the Manowar bit obvs. Hail And Kill! etc)
Your first sentence describes me pretty well, too. All the details are the same. My wife rolls her eyes at my black shirts with pentagrams and inverted crosses, and they are somewhat silly, but I think of them as a little retort to all the cross necklaces and jesus fish and “in god we trust” license plates I see everyday.
good article, I agree that the ‘Satanism’ in black metal is mostly, especially at this point, an act. I think that is why for me personally i’m drawn to bands like Enslaved, and Altar of Plagues, Wolves in the Throne Room, etc bands who use the sound of black metal but not the ‘philosophy.’ It’s much more interesting. Singing about Satan just really isn’t shocking, whether it’s Mayhew, Slayer, or Marilyn Manson.
There is nothing more bleak, cold, and terrifying than the notion that we are accidents of physics and chemistry. Satanists are reaching for the same cuddly pillow of meaning that Christians and other devout persons seek. That doesn’t make black metal any less fun, though I could certainly do with a little more knowingness from some bands.
This same debate was presented to Nightbringer by thelefthandpath.com. They had some interesting if yet overly wordy responses.
Some good comments. Forget all the fake posturing, because black metal especially has a ton of it.
I find it surprising that Cosmo says “spiritually black metal does nothing for me”.
Personally, I do find spiritual meaning in some metal, but usually the wordless screaming pure being kind (for example, Fell Voices). Spiritual in the sense of riding a riff in The Now because the music draws you in, knowing that it will end. That’s the worthy spiritual message of metal in my mind.
I don’t really listen to NSBM that much, mainly because most of the bands in that subgenre are just terrible music wise. I can listen to Hate Forest and Graveland every now and then, but that doesn’t mean I support whatever ideology they carry.
I dabbled with Satanism when I was in my early 20’s while I was de-programming myself from being raised Catholic, but I found all the rituals too troublesome and almost similar to Christianity so I just got bored with it. I do still think pentagrams and inverted crosses are cool though.
As an older and wiser grown ass man, I could comfortably listen to complex orthordox black metal like Deathspell Omega, while I can still appreciate the their musical and ideological polar opposites ie; The Louvin Brothers.
when i think of “satanic” bands, i think of that watain interview you posted a while back. they come across like a bunch of rappers; vague references to criminality and other bad things as a genuine expression of “who they are”.
do watain’s unpaid parking tickets and jaywalking citations add to their music? or is it just part of the marketing package?
personally, a “satanic” band starts at a handicap. they have to try harder to prove they’re worthy of my attention. like an all-guido hardcore band, i presume from the start that they’re worthless.
i probably miss out on good stuff because of this, but it also filters out a ton of shit. christianity has some kind of tradition to build from, though this is no more guaranteed to produce good music than bad. but at least it’ll be somewhat coherent – and possibly even spellchecked. fifty or so years of stirner filtered through anton lavey? talk about houses build on sand. antinomian flexing expressed from a position of extreme comfort?
i never cared for the whole package, so as a kid i missed out on a lot of good music because i found the ave satanas/cartoonish memento mori routine even more purile than outright jeebus tunes. for others, the package is an integral part for why and how they enjoy music, though i’ll never understand why.
when i ordered a moon cd from moribund cult, the confirmation email read:
“Find information on your recent order. Thank you for supporting the downfall of christ. Hail Satan!!”
i laughed, but only because i pretend they’re not serious. otherwise, it’s just really, really sad.
in the arts, mainstream conservatism isn’t really the reflexive reactionary position nor a bold new stance – cowboys singing sad songs about the bloodstained war machine that is the us government is fairly middle of the road. and leftish/marxist/vaguely redistributionist rock stars are beyond cliche. the greatest rebellion that underground metal could see would be a truly traditionalist band; it is a pool that could be drawn from for pre-christian themes, eco-mystic/fascist themes, political disengagement/subversion, etc. but more importantly, it stands against the true spirit of our age – the hyperindividualist* faux-egalitarian modern, unresponsible for his or her actions because the zeitgeist didn’t raise them right.
shorter version: more evola, less “evil”.
any medium-sized city’s childrens’ services department sees more true – and truly banal – evil in a day. satan? who the fuck cares about satan? who needs satan?
for some reason interviewers keep asking (and the public keeps caring about) musicians their opinions on macroeconomics and geopolitics. it’s a small – but certain – tragedy. but asking musicians about philosophy? may as well quiz them on building codes or hydrodynamics. no one hands a physic professor a guitar and expects them to shred just because they understand the physics of sound. it is perhaps even more unfair of me to expect coherent expression from the “artistic temperment”, one of those euphemisms that seems related to that southern expression “bless their heart”.
* please note that contra barzun (and burzum most likely), i am heartily in favor of atomized, hyperindividualist life, for all the bowling alone it seems to include.
@dhex
Nightbringer cites Evola in the same interview. Interesting…
Oh, so now he’s a philosiphiser….
Very interesting article, though of course if you’ve read my previous comments you know I don’t agree wholeheartedly (I am a Christian). Also, some very interesting comments.
What I’m going to pull out of this discussion is first, something not new, and second, something that may surprise you. First, black metal, for all its talk about individualism and forging your own path, is more burdened with orthodoxy than any other genre of metal. Whether Satanist, pagan, or nihilist or whatever, it’s all about being anti-Christian, and that mostly to shock people. It’s not too tough to be anti-Christian when you come from Norway or Sweden, though, the two most secular countries in the world. In Scandinavia, anti-religion is the norm, not rebellion (even if the state does support religion).
Second, I posit something that to be truly Christian is far more against-the-grain and essentially metal than any of these black metal tropes. By that, I mean truly embracing what Christ preached and lived, not going through the motions and doing the televangelist/mainstream praise singing garbage, and whatever else people think of when they think of mainstream Christianity. Christ embraced sinners and the worst of the worst, and he didn’t put up with the bullshit (and especially the posturing) from the religious establishment (like the Pharisees). He wholly rejected society’s values and lived his principles. He spoke his mind and didn’t tolerate hypocrisy. THAT’S metal. THAT’S true.
I once heard the argument that the reason you hear about lifelong metallers converting to Christianity later in life (Alice Cooper, Dave Mustaine, etc.) is because metalheads are the kind of people who go against the grain, and being truly Christian is going against the grain. I think there’s a lot of truth in that. You can see my point, too, if you’re not too burdened with metal orthodoxy.
@FullMetal — Interesting points, sir. I agree with you to an extent. I think the history of Christianity started with folks going against the grain. Jesus was basically exiled from his community, lived in poverty and was executed by the ruling class (Pharisees). His followers would probably be classified as cultists by today’s standards. The early message of Christ was simple: compassion, tolerance, taking care of the lowliest, brotherhood. It was a message of rebellion, of social disruption, of upending the status quo. The message has since been corrupted and twisted, first by the Roman Empire and then by generations of other faiths. What do Christ’s teachings have to do with evangelical ministers fleecing their flock, Catholic priests molesting kids or evangelicals attacking gay people? The historical Christ would be floored.
I certainly believe in divinity in the world and spirituality. However, I think faith is corrupted by man and institutions. Finding a path to spirituality is ultimately a personal quest, one that can only be answered by each seeker. I don’t think it can be found in a church or a simple answer or set of truths. That’s almost a cop out. A mentor or spiritual guide might be helpful but institutions are bound to fail.
I agree with your basic viewpoint (at least that it’s harder to be Christian than to profess Christianity), but at least in the U.S., where Christianity is as woven into the culture as you can get without it outright being the national religion, is it really that rebellious? Even if you’re honestly trying where most people don’t, you’re still identifying with a dominant belief system, and that gets you a pass that identifying with a minority belief system (e.g., Judaism, Islam, Buddhism) or removing yourself from the question altogether (atheism) doesn’t get you. Even if you’re sort of a freak, if you identify as a Christian, that’s at least one thing you have in common with another person. On the other hand, I can look as normal as the day is long (and mostly do), but if I tell someone I’m an atheist, they generally look at me like I just bit the head off of a bat.
I don’t begrudge teenagers for buying into ARGH HAIL SATAN or ARGH MY ANCESTORS, because they’re still trying to figure out who they are and what they believe. As an atheist adult, I like Mayhem and Burzum’s music (with exceptions – Fallen sucked and I could never get into Ordo Ad Chao) for its aesthetic appeal. From what I know of Satanism (not a whole lot), a “true” Satanist rejects all form of piety and worship (contemptuously referring to Satanists who believe in a literal opposition to God as “devil-worshipers”) for a life of reason, enlightened selfishness and hedonism. Basically: “God doesn’t exist so it’s okay if I’m an asshole.” But then again, there’s that whole idea of “trueness” and I’m too old for that shit. So those are things I’m happy to let people who care about it quibble over. It’s not a part of my life, which is probably the most Satanic response possible.
I think part of why critical thought in metal is so rare is tied up in the conflict between populism and elitism we keep hammering at in longer comment threads. On the one hand, populism broadly stated doesn’t encourage criticism, either because of a desire to embrace populist art uncritically to bolster the community (support the scene) or out of anti-intellectualism (see: any discussion about old-school death metal). On the other hand, elitism both insists on qualifications for criticism (how true are you?) and perpetuates the idea that only the qualified can judge the worth of something (you wouldn’t get it, it’s not for you, the demo was better, etc.) So you’re dealing both with “it shouldn’t be criticized” and “you aren’t qualified to criticize it.” Add pretension and posturing to taste (e.g., that interview with the dude from Watain), and well, you’ve got kind of a mess.
I like that part on “Wolf’s Lair Abyss” after the intro, right as the vocals start and the drums shift to blasting. That is so fucking cool.
Ahhh, the inevitable Christian that listens to black metal music…yes how daring of you and such a pioneer! You have joined the ranks of those few (millions of?) individuals who like yourself have embraced Jesus yet have so courageously dared to also embrace metal music, or drug use, or engage in pre-marital sex or any number of other such sinful indulgences that go against the grain. I applaud your individualism as you are truly unique.
Ah, the inevitable ad hominem attack. How well you refuted my point! This is especially powerful because you know nothing about me. And, apparently, nothing about my point, either. I applaud your unassailable logic and imposing intellect.
Yes yes, I do understand. You are a “true Christian” ( I would have ascribed such a title to Christian orthodoxy myself, but what do I know? Whereas you seem to tred somewhere beyond orthodoxy and “televangelist/mainstream praise singing garbage”) and you listen to metal (including Satanic black metal is the assumption) which means you have “gone against the grain” (for the purpose of??…going against the grain???)and that is “metal” of you. I am glad there is no room for ambiguity in your message of true individualism least some of us might be confused.
The Christian (be it “true” or “televangelist/mainstream”) is no more unique than the teenage black metal listener who sides with Satan. Dogma of two different sorts…
You clearly do not understand. First, what it means to be Christian–it has nothing to do with being perfect. Second, with my point–it is independent of me and who I am. And even if it did, I don’t go against the grain for its own sake. Metal chooses metalheads. It’s not the other way around. Finally, with the summary, Cliff’s Notes version of my point: “Christianity” as it’s usually treated within metal circles is a cartoon, a caricature, while metal people see different shades of Satanism/nihilism/paganism. Christianity is no less complex (probably moreso). And there are things about Christianity which are just as metal (or moreso) than what passes for “trve” in the metal world.
Boiled down further into a one-liner, it is this: Christianity is not incompatible with metal.
“Boiled down further into a one-liner, it is this: Christianity is not incompatible with metal.”
And Satanic black metal? Is that part of the Christ pantomime? Is this the “imperfection” piece that mirrors Christ’s imperfection? If so, based on this theory of acceptable loop holes within the otherwise dogmatic world that is Christianity, then is it not fair to say that the evangelist whom you see as flawed is indeed a “true Christian” given that he, like Christ does not personify perfection but flaw??
According to my childhood coloring books Christ was a long hair, though I think he may have been more suited to Stryper than Watain (or Graveland for that matter…har, har)
Most of your comment is incoherent, but I’ll pick out the points I can.
Loopholes? No, there is a recognition that no one (but Christ) is perfect. By your logic, if you’re not Lemmy you may as well give up metal entirely.
Do you agree with the lyrics of everything you listen to? Am I required to?
I am sorry you are struggling to comprehend. Let me put it in layman’s terms …
You seem to have separated yourself from the rest of the “modern” Christian world by stating that you try and act in accordance with Christ, yet at the same time imply shortcomings with an orthodox approach. It seems to me listening to something that is not only in direct opposition of your professed religion, but also would likely have been considered quite heretical by the original followers of Christ,falls far short of this proclamation of “true Christianity” and to “truly embrace what Christ preached and lived”. I am speaking specifically about “Satanic” black metal here, as stated above. You do not agree with it yet to indulge in it and that is ok? So you enjoy some black metal music because it entertains you, but you do not agree with the content, correct? Is there a line? How about pornography? Substance abuse? It seems that the concept of what is “sinful” and should be avoided within the confines of the Christian religion is indefinite in this case. Or perhaps living life as a “true” Christian is not so rigorous as one may think as you can partake in what you like, be it opposed to Christ or not, as long as you do not agree with it and enjoy it merely on a leisurely level. Hmmm….
“Do you agree with the lyrics of everything you listen to?”
I would not listen to or support something that was directly opposed to my philosophies and beliefs, no, but that is just me.
“Am I required to?”
By me? Certainly not. I could care less if you were a Semite in a Graveland shirt or a Christian headbanging to Funeral Mist, I simply do not find your appraoch to metal music via a Christian point of view to be unique or exceptional in any way shape or form. Are you required to agree with the lyrics of what you listen to in order to be in accordance with your faith…apparently not.
And thank you for finally explaining your point.
“You seem to have separated yourself from the rest of the “modern” Christian world by stating that you try and act in accordance with Christ, yet at the same time imply shortcomings with an orthodox approach.”
I do not understand your meaning with the second half of this statement. As to the first, I am not separating myself, I am making a distinction: not all who profess Christianity are Christians.
The remainder of your argument assumes that lyrics are an essential part of music. I prefer the Obituary approach of pure vocals. I’ve mentioned before I’d rather not be able to understand it, because lyrics only distract from the music. Music is entertainment. Pornography is different because its very essence is sinful. Where the line is between there, well, I think it’s just pornography.
It just seems to me that an orthodox approach would surely be in closer accordance with the concept of striving to reach the (near) perfection of Christ. I have been out of the loop for a while now but from what I recall Christ did not personify absolute perfection until his moment of sacrifice for our sins upon the cross, thus the moment of doubt in the desert and so on. I had assumed the Christian approach would be to be as Christ-like as possible with the understanding that you will fall into the pitfalls of “sin” along the way, but if one recognizes something as “sinful” they should eliminate this thing from their lives in accordance with the goal to strive for this state of Christ-like righteousness. Sorry, but to say that listening to satanic black metal still jives with this goal is a hard pill to swallow.
Many devout Christians would likely not see eye to eye with your view on satanic black metal music being acceptable whatsoever. Also, I would argue that any black metal act of worth writes from the heart which means that their very essence, like pornography is “sinful” from a Christian point of view. For many black metal professes a spiritual essence, as gospel music does in Christianity. To say that satanic/anti-Christian metal is ok for a devout Christian to listen to but porn is sin seems a bit ridiculous to me.
There are so many issues compressed into this topic, but I’ll do my best to be simple and lucid.
When Full Metal Attorney speaks on “being” Christian as opposed to professing Christianity, the problem is one of language. Now bear with me for a moment, this might be a bumpy ride. In my view, the key point to remember about Christianity (and to varying degrees other monotheistic religions such as Judaism and Islam) is that it has been used as a tool of cultural definition as well as domination by the West. Moreover, the temporal and cultural distance between our “present” and the context of the creation of Christianity in various contexts is huge. Just think, there are so many competing versions, each one sprouting from indigenous cultural and spiritual traditions.
It also pays us mind to remember that these “versions” of the religion under examination are known to us through the creation of history. Here’s where I tie it back in. The creation of history too, has been used as a tool of cultural definition and domination (blood and soil).
Now, let’s return to FMA. I believe that FMA’s version of Christianity is one built on self-reflexivity. That is an ability to question, think through and synthesise. This to me is a key aspect of any religion.
Now in a complete left turn to the above, I have to talk briefly about myself. As a lay Buddhist, I have read, studied and participated in a wide variety of “spiritual contexts”. I have studied both major branches of Buddhism from India to China and Japan. What happens to Buddhism over time and context is that the message of “we all suffer, we all repeat mistakes and happiness (heaven) can only be arrived at from within” changes to Christian like concepts of heaven and hell, incorporates a beastiary etc.
Yet, unlike (mainstream, contemporary) Christianity, Buddhism encourages self-reflexivity, pondering, wondering and doubt. It also doesn’t saddle people with an obligation to believe, since after all, we are all a part of Buddha nature. It also actively encourages paradox. For example, one doesn’t need to “believe” in a deity for it to exist, but one might well believe and yet the deity does not exist, however, both positions may be wrong. In other words, the onus of responsibility is on the individual.
Thus in a Buddhist worldview, there is no conflict between a Christian listening to satanic music or vice versa, since only the individual listener can adequately give voice to the strength and effects of any conflict that arises. There is no external authority, only our relationship to certain traditions, beliefs and practices.
Want more conflict/paradox? Frankly, I find a lot of the satanism in metal to be half-baked, immature and myopic. Yet on the other hand I am happy that there is a counter voice to the mainstream, dominant Christian voice (even if that Christianity is different to how FMA conceptualises it). I require neither a hell nor a heaven in the afterlife for both of them are constatnly present on the planet I inhabit.
I am reminded of C.O.C.’s “Clean my wounds”:
“Help me Jesus, help me clean my wounds/
He says he cannot heal that kind”.
In other words: “I pray for forgiveness, but in the end, it is not divinity which ameliorates my suffering, but rather it is and can only be me”.
@Undertow81:
Your remembrance of Christianity is quite different from anything I’ve ever heard. I’d be interested to learn in what tradition you were raised. We do strive to eliminate the sinful. But the notion that listening to music can be sinful boggles the mind. Black metal stirs perfectly normal emotions. Hitchcock said a movie is only as good as the villain; I like to hear good villains in my music. It doesn’t mean I want the villain to win.
@6810:
Your interpretation/observations are not far from what I was trying to say. Of course discourse is helped when we clear up our basic assumptions and definitions.
I’m sorry, it was Roger Ebert.
Apparently you view all metal including black metal as mere entertainment. From this perspective, yes I suppose you could compare it to a horror novel or movie and then it becomes safe and accessible to all to partake in including Christians. I do not view black metal music in this way, as I am sure you do not view gospel music in this way. From my perspective it is professing spiritual and or philosophical beliefs (be them juvenile, ridiculous or otherwise) that are not only in contrast to but directly opposed to Christianity. I assure you many devout Christians would have major issues with any of their flock listening to this kind of music. From my stand point it seems hypocritical, like a Jew listening to Screwdriver.
@6810. In regards to justifying this stance by placing this all within a Buddhist context…well, Buddhism is a far cry from Christianity.
How are those spiked armbands and bullet belts working out for you?
This is an interesting subject. A few semi-related thoughts:
1. I’m in complete agreement that the overtly Satanic subject matter of a lot of black metal is somewhat silly and one of the weaker aspects of the genre. However the Mayhem/Burzum distinction, while interesting, is somewhat simplistic, and its worth noting that there are numerous strands even here, some more interesting than others. Mayhem is a particularly simplistic, even silly, variant – Mayhem (early Darkthrone as well) are best enjoyed as a kind of blackened, anarchic punk, but the thematic content and imagery are utterly juvenile. Emperor strikes me as the better early expression of overt Satanism – still kind of silly, but much more theatrical and fully realized. More recent acts like Deathspell Omega take these themes to a more sophisticated level, but its ultimately a more erudite refinement of the same phenomenon. To me the more interesting variant here is found in a band like Inquisition, where the Satanism seems to have less to do with an overtly anti-Christian stance and more with a generalized vision of chaos in the universe.
2. I’m not sure I completely buy the proposed distinction as applied to Burzum. Varg is after all notorious as a church burner and much of his output is centered on a Bathory-esque rejection of Christianity as a colonizing force in medieval Europe. So yes, Burzum avoids the iconography and mythos of Christianity, but the work exists very much in opposition to Christanity and Christan culture.
3. To me there is a third variant of Black Metal and it is the one I personally find the most aesthetically and thematically interesting. This is the strand that has its routes in Ulver’s early records, especially Bergtatt, runs through later European bands like Drudkh and Negura Bunget, and reaches its apotheosis in the US “Cascadian” groups, particularly Agalloch and WITTR. This strand truly sidesteps Christianity for the most part, or intersects with it only peripherally, instead harnessing the aesthetic tropes and power of black metal to (1) a deep and fundamental rejection of modernity and modern western, capitalist culture and/or (2) a pantheistic view of nature, often taking the form of overtly ecological themes. This strand largely avoids the half-baked, quasi-christian aspects of the Mayhem/Emperor line and the politically and historically questionable aspects of the Bathory/Burzum line (although the distinction gets murkier here in the case of a band like Drudkh; even Agalloch draws heavily on an aesthetic level from neofolk groups with questionable associations, although I don’t see those politics manifested in Agalloch’s music). Instead, this strand points toward what to me is a far more compelling and deeply subversive spiritual, and at times political, vision.
@max
Don’t know how successful this will be, from my phone, but maybe you could start here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0385263457/ref=aw_d_detail?pd=1
Dude wrote a lot of science fiction, a lot of hard science, and (surprise!) a lot ABOUT science and scientific thought itself.
I have always strongly believed that bands which are uncapable of making interesting music (as in sounds) have to divert people’s attention with such statements as those quoted by Cosmo. On the other hand, really good bands rely entirely on the music they play, whether their intention is to convey a particular message. Music prevails.
I myself own Burzum records, well the good ones anyhows, I wouldn’t if the lyrics were right wing/NS, even if they are in Norske and I couldn’t understand them, far as I hear, The Count Quisling, or whatever he chooses to name himself this week sings about pagan forest spirits and whatnots, Mayhem stopped being good a long, long time ago, love Attila though.
If there,s such a division to be made I’d go for the Burzum way, no question.
The problem with most bands is that they apply an imagery to their music which they can hardly apply to themselves in real life, making them posers in a more or less direct way. If you can’t back-up the talk with the walk, what is it saying of your artistic and personal integrity? Artists unable to back their claims are just vandals of their arts.
It might be worth noting that many branches of modern satanism are actually atheistic, and they’re just using the symbology to provoke or for their own humor
I think a handful of bands are taking the satanic foundation of black metal and trying to incorporate more arcane non-christian references by emphasizing the “evil” attributes of The One God of different monist religions. The double-standard here is that metal as a genre will have nothing to do with the so-called “good” attributes of The One God from whom all deities originate. To me this move is desperate and uninteresting. I have the cover to the last Weapon album in mind.
The form of black metal used to be part of its content. The Satanic Panic is over in the west. How is it not just about aesthetics and nostalgia now?
What do you guys think?
The Satanic Panic is in no way over. It’s just become institutionalized.
“just because we wear black t-shirts with undecipherable logos doesn’t mean we’re all on the same team”
PAF!
Couldn’t say it clearer/better.
It’s not often I witness an argument betweeen a devout Christian and a non-Christian, and become annoyed at the narrowmindedness of the second person.
Gwar preaches about hatred and violence against all of mankind… perhaps no people should be allowed to enjoy their music?
In a broader sense.. why should you (undertow) presume that all people appreciate a work of art (inasmuch as black metal music can be thought of as an art form) in the same way or for the same reason?? That’s just sheer idiocy or pure egocentricism, I’m not sure which. Maybe both.
I personally have no issue with this person listening to black metal as I previously stated, I just do not agree that it is unique, brave, so on so forth which was the original argument, and even the most dim witted can see the hypocrisy involved here. However, hypocrisy is your god given right (no pun intended), so have at it, but do not paint it into something that it is not.
Anyhow, and correct me if I am wrong, but I am fairly certain that GWAR is indeed all for show, mere entertainment, all for fun, so on. It seems there would be a conflict of spiritual interest if a so called devout Christian was purchasing music from a band that preaches a sincere message of opposition against that persons chosen faith. Further more, in regards to bands such as Burzum and the like, who have burnt Christian churches to the ground, murdered and so on, it seems like involving yourself with such music and claiming to be a devout Christian is even more problematic as now there is certainly a division between mere entertainment and actual hard line belief, philosophy, spirituality, what have you.
See, there’s the whole problem in a nutshell. You are making a distinction between art that you enjoy for pure entertainment, and art that you enjoy because there is an underlying message. Which you have every right to do. But you can’t assume everyone makes the same distinction.
I have assumed nothing. I simply find it hard to believe one can write off certain things as mere entertainment, especially in this specific case. It is a fair argument to say many bands within black metal have certainly crossed the line of being simply entertainers. Of course interpretation is in the eye of the beholder, but in the case of a devout Christin I had assumed there would be less room for personal interpretation on such matters, but perhaps this is my point of failure as the term “devotion” is obviously being used very liberally here. As a devout Christian should you purchase the album of a church burning murderer who has professed a message of anti-Christianity, dismissing the hard facts because you like the way the music sounds? Does this speak to devotion? Well that is up to the individual. WWJD?
I never claimed it was unique. I’m not sure where you’re getting that. Also, I don’t buy anything from church burners (when I’m aware they are church burners). I might make an exception if they would pay back the damages they caused, and assuming they don’t have plans to continue burning.
And with that, I think I’m done with this conversation. I think I’ve made my points clear. Thanks for the entertainment.
Ahh, my fault. I had thought that your multiple comments about “going against the grain” implied some sort of uniqueness, as going against the grain typically implies a departure from the status quo. Again thank you for refraining from ambiguity. So Burzum is a sin least he make amends financially? Well, I believe the government is making him do just that so perhaps once his debt reaches zero you will be able to partake and retain your status of “true devout Christian”.
“Thanks for the entertainment.”
No my Christian friend, thank you. Always a pleasure.
I still can’t decide whether or not you’re the most brilliant troll I’ve ever encountered. I was hoping I’d figure it out, but I can’t.
Ahh, come on now. To chalk my opposition up to “trolling” is a cop out. I sincerely think that your view is paradoxical.
You’ve intentionally misrepresented everything I’ve said, and tried to find disagreement with every single element. It resembles trolling, for sure, but you seem outwardly sincere. There are plenty of outwardly sincere people who are not sincere with themselves–they stubbornly refuse to interpret others the way they obviously intend, and come off just as bad as the intentional trolls. If you are a troll, the appearance of sincerity is a stroke of genius. If you are being sincere, I feel bad for you.
I participate in the Internet for shared meaning, understanding, and honest disagreement. Whether or not you’re a troll, you appear bent on misinterpreting everything I say–so you’re the same as a troll whatever your purpose. So in either case, I believe any further discussion would be fruitless.
Obviously you have backed yourself into a corner and are unable to further justify your stance. You need no help from me in regards to misrepresentation. Finding disagreements with every single element of what you have said was no difficult task as what you have stated is rooted in hypocrisy. There is little room for interpretation here. I have presented you with legitimate opposition and you have chosen to write it off as something else. I have no issue with what you or anyone else listens to. I simply think that your justifications in regards to Satanic/anti-Christian metal and your “devotion” to the Christian faith is paper thin at best.
On the contrary, it is your position which is paper thin. It depends on at least two faulty premises:
1. That the intent of an artist is paramount, and people cannot appreciate art or interpret it in other ways. The entire history of art criticism is against you here. Every time an oil executive enjoys an Ansel Adams photo, or a skinhead watches American History X, your argument falls apart. Not only that, but Varg Vikernes himself enjoys the works of Tolkien, and clearly interprets them in a way that’s divergent from the author’s intended meaning.
2. That a person cannot appreciate music while ignoring the lyrics. Nobody understands the lyrics of “Louie Louie”, yet it’s been quite the succesful song. I also don’t understand the lyrics of any black metal song I’ve ever heard, whether it be from Satyricon, Marduk, or (on the other side) Crimson Moonlight. By your logic, an avowed atheist could not appreciate and enjoy Handel’s Messiah.
If you take those faulty premises away, your entire argument becomes meaningless. But feel free to continue holding to your beliefs.
I generally agree with everything you have just stated except that we are speaking of something more specific than the general listener who may or may not agree with the content of any given form of art. You are speaking from the perspective a supposed “devout” and “true Christian”, which implies there are a large majority of Christians you deem to be untrue as they do not live in accordance with Christ yet you yourself have made exceptions and excuses in regards to music that is at its core anti-Christian, the main excuse being that the music is purely thematic, like a Steven King novel, when that is not the reality in many cases. In my eyes you seem no more devout than the every day American Christian who partakes in whatever they will regardless of weather it is truly in accordance with the teachings of Christ, justifying their actions afterwords via very lose and liberal interpretations of faith and devotion. As far as not understanding the lyrics of the listed black metal bands, you cannot play the ignorance card as although you may not know the lyrics specifically you certainly know their content and message. I have a hard time believing Christ and his original followers would sanction such music.
“By your logic, an avowed atheist could not appreciate and enjoy Handel’s Messiah.”
By my logic an atheist most certainly could enjoy Handel’s Messiah, Jesus Christ Superstar, hard core porn, black metal, or anything under the sun because an atheist is not bound by a religious codex and spiritually guided morality, whereas a devout Christian certainly would be. An atheist does not run the risk of religious hypocrisy, you however most certainly do.
Your position still rests on the assumption that the themes of the music matter, and you are inserting a third unstated assumption–that listening to music which does not agree with the religion is in itself a sin. I am curious as to the biblical basis for such an assertion. In any case, your premise is one and the same as your conclusion, and therefore does not even constitute an argument.
My position rests on the fact that the music is not entirely thematic but spiritual and or philosophical and in direct opposition to your faith. It seems hypocritical to support something that is vehemently opposed to your religion and at the same time call yourself devout. I wonder how many orthodox Jews listen to Wagner because they like the way it sounds? I am guessing not very many. Most Christians are completely against this form of music as it represents the antithesis of their spiritual values, and beyond that often mocks and blasphemes their entire religious institution. It promotes violence, death, devil worship, church arson, and so on and so on. Your view of devotion to Christ includes (or at least makes allowances for) listening to satanic and anti-Christian metal. To me this does not paint the picture of the true and devout Christian. This is my stance regarding this and it is most certainly logical.
As far as the argument is concerned, this is what they call an “impasse”.
I agree that many Christians don’t like this kind of music. But to them, lyrics matter. Not everyone agrees on what’s important. It would indeed be odd if I agreed that lyrics were important, or that the intent of the artist is important, and then listened to it anyway. But then, that’s not the case.
My position has clearly been defended, with sound premises and sound logic, based on two simple facts, i.e., that the lyrics don’t matter (they don’t) and that the intent of the artist doesn’t matter (it doesn’t). What the lyrics and artist promote, oppose, represent, mock, or blaspheme is irrelevant when all I’m concerned about is aesthetics.
You, on the other hand, have taken a position which is supported by faulty premises. I have demonstrated why they are faulty. Your entire position falls apart without those premises. So, you have then asserted that it doesn’t “paint the picture” you expect. This is a logical position?
“My position has clearly been defended, with sound premises and sound logic, based on two simple facts, i.e., that the lyrics don’t matter (they don’t) and that the intent of the artist doesn’t matter (it doesn’t).”
The lyrics don’t matter? How about the whole purpose and premise of the band, the very quintessence of what the genre represents? I suppose that does not matter either? Again, your approach to devotion is so liberal to the point of being ridiculous. Many black metal acts are very clear that their art is not thematic but based in actual personal belief, but i suppose you will dismiss this as well and chalk it up to entertainment or compare it to a horror movie or book. It is a cop out. A Christian who is supporting anything overtly anti-Christian is a hypocrite plain and simple.
There you go again dodging the premises. Those are essential to any productive argument.
Thanks for this discussion. I suggest you read the following:
http://fullmetalattorney.blogspot.com/2005/10/abortion-primer-on-argument-theory-and.html
http://fullmetalattorney.blogspot.com/2006/02/on-twisting-of-arguments-or-gummy.html
“My position has clearly been defended, with sound premises and sound logic”
The anti-Christian message and their very intent does not matter because you say so…what a sound argument you have built here. What a liberating point of view in an otherwise confined spiritual world, as you can surely apply this logic to other things that may be deemed “sinful”. Simply ignore the aspect of any given thing that is in opposition of your spiritual values by deeming it unimportant and stating that “it does not matter”.
“So, you have then asserted that it doesn’t “paint the picture” you expect. This is a logical position?”
I have stated that the so called “true and devout Christian” who supports anything rooted in an anti-Christian tradition (which black metal is at its core no matter how hard you attempt to ignore this fact) is anything but “true and devout” and if you fail to see the logic behind this you are truly blind. I do not believe that is the actuality however. I think you know full well the extent of your own hypocrisy and like many Christians before you attempt to justify your hypocrisy with utterly transparent excuses such as that it is ok to listen to Satanic music and be a Christian as long as you don’t understand the lyrics, or that if the band members have burned a church they have made financial amends, or if you simply are def and dumb to the very purpose,intent and message the given band preaches.
When the rapture comes will your car still be unmanned if your Crimson Moon CD is spinning in the disk player? Sarcasm obviously, but in all seriousness you never answered my question above. Do you think Jesus and his original followers would sanction anti-Christian and Satanic music as acceptable for their followers to partake in? I would love to get a mass consensus from the Christian community on this one. I think i know which way the vote would go. But then again, they are likely the “false” Christians you have referenced while you, the black metal embracing soldier of God, are obviously the elect.
I thought we were done here.
I grew up a Christian and I am very familiar with the agonies of trying to justify listening to so-called “evil” music. The fact of the matter is that Black metal celebrates the broad spectrum of what The Bible points out to be ungodly, ie. darkness, anger, discord, hopelessness, loneliness, lustfulness, violence, the list goes on. Black metal is fundamentally incompatible with a mainstream Christian religious practice. When I was young my mom told me I couldn’t take Metallica to heaven with me. The same applies to Marduk.
A good, thoughtful piece that obviously drew a lot of people’s interest.
I just wanted to add that there are a few types of Satanism, all of which I’ve seen represented in metal to some degree or another.
1. Theistic Satanism. These are people who actually “worship the devil.” They hold rituals and holy days. Some of them worship Satan, others worship Lucifer (the pre-fall angel).
2. LaVeyan Satanism. These are people who follow the philosophies of Anton LaVey and his books, particularly the Satanic Bible. They’re not religious folks; many consider themselves atheist. For them Satanism is more a philosophy of being adversarial. A very me-first, self-deifying philosophy.
3. Temple of Set Satanists. They’re much like the theistics, except that their god is the Egyptian adversary, Set.
4. Pagans/chaos magicians who use Satanism as part of an eclectic practice.
5. Dabblers. Kids and adults who base their practices off movies, horror books, what they hear in the news, etc. They may be grabbing at straws, trying to gain power or are exploring/experimenting but don’t know which actual faith might suit them. Or they’re trying to scare people.
I read an interview with Erik Danielsson from Watain where he was asked how he felt about atheists listening to his music. He said he didn’t want atheists listening to his music because they wouldn’t and couldn’t understand what he was talking about/attempting to express. He went on to say that because they believed in nothing, atheists couldn’t possibly comprehend his point of view. For a moment, as an atheist myself, I felt a tad insulted (I’m a casual Watain fan at best, but still, I dig the music) until I realized that it doesn’t matter what I believe: it’s just music. I’ll always feel a sense of disconnect from black metal (I live in suburban Pittsburgh, which is a far cry from Norway or the Pacific Northwest), but that doesn’t mean I can’t get something from the music. The sense of moral superiority that accompanies black metal has always turned me off, so honestly, I just ignore it.
The thing is though is that if you devalue music by demeaning it to the “just…” status, you effectively deny the social and cultural contexts of music. Now it is easy for us to say that our beloved metal’s reverend ancestors, blues and jazz are just music. If not just muzak. But the reality is that it came not from within a vacuum, but from horrific violence: colonisation and slavery. When people are prevented from performing their music they are denied thier cultural heritage, thier identities etc.
As for Watain and atheists. I used to have a real respect for Watain. But then I read numerous interviews and was profoundly disappointed by XXX’s ability to speak intelligently or engagingly on matters good and evil, spiritual and mundane. His world view so limited. If the dude had any sense, he’d welcome atheists. For after all, aren’t they toothe allies of evil? After all, they are denying god right? Watain and atheists BFF FTW?
Varg is simply someone with major insecurities about himself. As many of the “great” black metal artists. Don’t get me wrong I fucking love black metal, but I think most of the “great” artist just don’t have anyone to talk too so their beliefs spiral out of control in their head until they come to an elitist philosophy in one form or another.
I find this whole discussion quite fascinating; particularly the dialogue between FMA and Undertow. Let me begin by stating that I am a firm believer in Christ. The core beauty of this belief is faith in the mystery of life. Faith that there is more out there than just this cold existence, more than some cosmic joke of a dirt nap at the end. Thus there is a very beautiful, mystic quality about Christianity which has been sterilized by televangelists, conservatives, and just the general population. I’m not professing that my beliefs are any more “true” than these Christians, just that I view Christianity for its beauty and spiritual awakening within.
Regarding whether it is ok for a Christian to listen to satanic black metal, it is ultimately up to that person. To pass judgment on this matter is no less close-minded than a conservative Christian professing that Muslims are going to hell or that people that listen to heavy metal are evil. What matters is how the person takes the message.
Obviously FMA is an intelligent individual who can fully rationalize that some of these black metal artists are vehemently opposed to Christianity. However, he chooses to listen to the music simply because its sound, atmosphere, etc. appeals to him. In my opinion there is nothing hypocritical about that.
I myself will not listen to these satanic black metal artists because their message does bother me. They seem to advocate pure chaos and hatred which does not fully represent the world I see. True, I’ve felt loss, alienation, depression, but one cannot dwell on this. This being said, I do love heavy metal and even listen to WITTR who some may not even consider black metal. Regardless, I love the sound, atmosphere, and more importantly, the fact that they are not at all satanic, atheist, etc. because to me that does make a difference. Oh well, you know the old saying “opinions are like…”