L - R: Zdenka Prado (Estuary), Melissa Hastings (Adorior), Susan Gerl (God Dethroned)
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I was raped when I was 15 years old. It was my first sexual experience. To cope, I disassociated. It wasn’t on purpose; my mind just didn’t want to be in my body while my body was doing things my mind wasn’t ready for. For years afterward, I couldn’t be sexual with anyone without totally checking out of my body.
I’m not telling you this because I’m some kind of victim. I’m telling you this because it hurt like hell, and like all nasty wounds, it needed strong medicine to heal.
When Metallica released “One” four months afterward, I hung on and couldn’t let go. “Now that the war is through with me, I’m waking up, I cannot see that there’s not much left of me. Nothing is real but pain now”. Sure, James Hetfield was inspired by a landmine victim in a 1930s war novel. But you couldn’t convince me that he didn’t know what it was like to be a sexually abused girl. It was clear in every line. Singing with melancholy, numbness, and rage, Hetfield was right there with me, just when I desperately needed to know I wasn’t alone.
At the time, I had no idea why the song rang me like a gong. I just knew I needed more. More guitars, more bass, more double-bass drum pounding like a panicked heartbeat, more angry, sad words. I was already into Guns N’ Roses and a few other metal bands who straddled the mainstream, but after “One” I fell into metal like Baby Jessica falling into that Texas well. The only difference was, I would have savaged anyone who tried to pull me out.
Ironically, the music I suddenly needed most had no use for me. I had every right to listen to the music, at home or in the clubs. But plenty of signals told me just the opposite. At that time especially, metal was very much a guys’ world, from the take-no-prisoners music to the rigors of the mosh pit. In lyrics, women were lamented, reviled, violated, or ignored, but rarely respected. At shows, it was much the same.
When you were a female in the metal scene in the 1980s, you had two choices. If you wanted to bag a guitarist – the one onstage or one in the crowd – your required uniform involved a tight leather miniskirt, a studded bra or bustier, and enough hairspray to light a bonfire. If you were there for the music, you dressed like the guys. Being sexualized was the last thing I wanted, so I went with option two. I hid in black jeans, band t-shirts, Converse high-tops, and backwards baseball hats.
Like any subculture, the world of heavy metal has rules. There’s an obvious dress code; violate it at your own peril. What you give up in fashion choices, you supposedly make back in community. Millions of misfit kids have made their home in heavy metal, and with that comes a sense of belonging: a tribe. At least, that’s how it works when you’ve got a Y chromosome.
I would have loved to join that headbanger tribe. But because of my dress code choices, the guys, by and large, ignored me. It didn’t help that I was shy. At my small high school, male metalheads seemed to accept me. But at shows? Forget it. While the guys bonded over the band’s riffage, I might as well have been a scuff on the floor.
Had we talked, we might have discovered much in common. Adults said such aggressive music would only wind kids up, but for me it did the opposite: it soothed me. I’d read dozens of metal magazines and watched hours of Headbangers Ball and nobody mentioned this effect, so I assumed I was an aberration. It wasn’t until I read the work of Jeffrey Jensen Arnett in my late 20s that I realized guys were listening for the same reason I was. Go figure that in a male-dominated scene, nobody (including the women) would own up to how the music made them really feel.
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Metallica - 'One' (video still)
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The thing is, I suspect their reasons for loving metal were similar to mine. Some of them – possibly most of them – found something in metal that purged their pain and made them feel powerful. And it didn’t just help with big, life-changing trauma. Frustrated at school? Anthrax’ cover of “Got the Time” provided a three-minute thrash-filled vacation. Feeling like my parents didn’t get me – or my love of metal? Accept’s “Generation Clash” provided the perfect, brooding companion to my angst.
Despite those common threads, I was left alone with the music. That, too, was problematic. For example, one of the best – and most inescapable – metal albums of the 1980s was Guns N’ Roses’ Appetite for Destruction. Penned by a bunch of testosterone-fueled musicians just on the far side of adulthood, the album is reckless, alive, full of emotion: anger, love, sexuality, confusion. On the one hand, there are tender moments in “Sweet Child O’ Mine”. On the other, there’s the balls-out version of “You’re Crazy”, the perfect antidote to those times when your friends and loved ones stop making sense. So far, so good.
But then there’s “It’s So Easy” – “Turn around, bitch, I’ve got a use for you / Besides, you ain’t got nothing better to do, and I’m bored” – to say nothing of the sexual exploitation in “Anything Goes”. The original album cover, by Robert Williams, featured a robotic rapist standing over his sprawled, unconscious victim. Sure, a flying monster was about to give the robot its comeuppance, but the damage had already been done.
I don’t know what guys made of these messages. As a female fan – and as someone who had been through sexual assault – it made me uneasy at best. I loved the music, mostly. But I had to love it in spite of what it told me about women. Certainly GNR were not the only ones exploring exploitation and dominance over women: Mötley Crüe, Alice Cooper, W.A.S.P. ,and many others belted their fair share of misogynistic lyrics. Even those bands more likely to appeal to “chicks” made sure to feature prancing women in their videos just so we’d know men’s desires were still important. In some ways, it was easier to listen to bands like Slayer and Metallica, who barely acknowledged women at all.
Sure, there were women metal musicians in those days. Lita Ford rocked with the best of them, but she always did so with her breasts on display. All-girl bands such as Vixen gained airplay but were largely marginalized. Their music was too girly for the guy crowd, and their sexy outfits relegated them to pinup status in most people’s minds.
Even the use of makeup among ’80s bands – from Twisted Sister to Poison – was in no way a concession to feminine power. Quite the opposite; by co-opting “girly” makeup, the guys were saying, “I’m so manly, I’m going to doll up and you’ll still know exactly what I am: a hard-rocking, ass-kicking dude”. Looking like a woman was a way of proving how much of a man you were.
Metal’s guy-centric atmosphere can be chalked up to the fact that metal was founded almost exclusively by young men. For a long while, it was a rowdy boys’ club, one where they could let it all hang out, specially their fears and neuroses about women, and about the feminine parts of themselves. Even with counter-evidence staring them right in the face (I was by no means the only female buying records or concert tickets), it was a shockingly long time before guys realized they weren’t the only ones throwing the horns.
When it did come, that awareness didn’t come so much from the guys themselves but from the women who powered their way into the scene. At the end of the ’80s, as grunge took over the airwaves, everyone took a break from the hyper-masculine world of heavy metal. Guys got a chance to be angsty and emotional with bands such as Alice in Chains and Soundgarden – and to share the auditorium floor with girls. Meanwhile, Riot Grrrl put women in power. Their guitars roared with it; their voices screamed with it. Even when women like Kat Bjelland and Courtney Love dressed like sexy little girls, it was clear that it wasn’t for titillation.
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Appetite for Destruction - Original Cover
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As metal soldiered on, it branched out. Operatic and folk metal bands place women musicians front and center. Singers like Angela Gossow, Stevie Floyd, and Otep Shamaya have proven they can bellow with the best of them – and rock out without flashing their goods. Mainstream metal acts, from Tool to Lacuna Coil, offer emotional music that doesn’t emasculate the audience.
Now, many metal shows see something approaching gender parity. Many women still adopt the t-shirt/jeans uniform, but others finally feel free to dress in their own style without the risk of being ostracized. Sure, there are limits – metal is still a subculture with some fairly strict rules, but those limits are expanding.
That doesn’t mean the sexism is gone. The rise of women in metal bands has unfortunately given rise to such ideas as the “Hottest Chicks in Metal” tour, reinforcing the idea that women are only onstage to be ogled. And not just onstage – even now, there are men who will tell you that if you dare sit on someone’s shoulders so you can see, you’d better show your tits. If you want to crowd-surf, you might as well be Lara Logan in Tahrir Square. And when a woman shows her love for Slayer by belly-dancing to “Black Magic”, it’s only fair to (a) laugh at her or (b) talk about how hot she is, right?
It isn’t gone from the music or the videos, either. Behemoth’s latest, “Ov Fire and the Void”, maintains one of the oldest feminine symbols in the book: woman as demon – a sexy, child-bearing, edible demon.
There are no quick fixes for the misogyny that’s been rampant in the metal scene since Ozzy sang “Evil Woman”. Partly, that’s because the sexism in metal mirrors (and distills) the sexism in larger society. To get past it, we have to consciously choose to transcend thousands of years of cultural and DNA programming.
The good news is, metalheads love finding ways to rebel against mainstream society. We can use this to our advantage. Musicians and listeners both need to get past the blockade known as the male gaze. Stop assuming that the primary listener is a heterosexual male, and you’re already on your way.
Guys can do their part by making space for women in the scene. For starters, get past the idea that women “don’t like metal”. Be friendly at shows, but don’t flirt. Talk about a song you like, or the last time you saw the band live. Then ask women about their experiences with the music and gigs. In other words, make them feel welcome without making them feel like a steak on a platter. Keep your hands off. If you see fellow guys mistreating the women in the audience, say something.
Women have their responsibilities, too. Show up, rock out, and speak up for your love of metal. Do it your way and don’t let anyone cut you down for it. Talk to guys at shows – about the music. Keep an eye on women in the crowd who aren’t being respected, and step in (or get help) when that happens. Get involved. Take pictures at shows, or start a blog. Make a lot of noise about the bands who write music for everyone. Make a lot of noise at bands who don’t.
Readers: What have your experiences of sexism in the metal scene been? What lyrics, images, or behaviors stand out to you? And what do you think can be done to make the scene more welcoming, particularly to female fans? What, if anything, needs to change?
Pictured front: Susan Gerl
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Beth Winegarner is a frequently published author in print and online.
She blogs at Backward Messages about misconceptions of metal, violent video games, the occult, and other topics.
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Great article, and I agree there still is a very sexist, beer-swilling attitude in metal, though I read another fine article about how women for some reason were much more accepted and treated as equals in doom and sludge circles but I can’t seem to locate it.
Nevermind, here it is: http://codeaires.tumblr.com/post/2132955843/women-in-sludge-metal-an-analysis-to-view
i have a female cousin who is 15 years younger than me (i am male) and when she was just getting into music, at the age of 14/15, i would take her to gigs that she wanted (interpol, okgo, the walkmen etc) and in return she accompanied me to gigs i wanted to go to if i had no one else more suitable available (cannibal corpse, forbidden, exodus, origin, necrophagist, enslaved, mastodon etc)
so, as she got to 17/18, with long black hair, tended to wear black and grey skintight clothes and was/is basically drop dead gorgeous, but in no way a metal fan, it was interesting to hear her views on the difference between metal gigs/ audiences and those of a more mainstream indie/club scene and she reckoned that in all the times she went to my gigs she got the ‘anonymous hand on the arse’ only once whereas at her gigs, with or without me there, she lost count of the uninvited fondling, juvenile leering and general bullshit sexual attention she had to put up with, as opposed to any positive friendliness or generally positive male attention
we came to the conclusion that fans at metal gigs, at least for the type of metal that i like, either don’t really know how to react to a beautiful, ‘non-metal’ woman, and therefore don’t hassle her, or they are just there for the music and to headbang and assume everyone else is too, whether they are male or female- i guess we’ll never know but, even if she never loved the music, she DID love the atmosphere of passion and genuine excitement at a metal gig with it’s lack of need to be ‘hip’, regardless of the sexual politics
we are both feminists though and it was always interesting having those discussions about songs such as cannibal corpses ‘fucked with a knife’ or ’stripped, raped and strangled’, which we both see as so far beyond reality that they are all about a kind of laughable comic, gross-out effect, whereas the WASP/crue/guns n roses stance is too close to the everyday attitude of too many men, or at least what they would want if they were king for a day, and therefore far more disturbing- but then i guess it all comes down to the fact that it is all a fantasy world and, male or female, you pay your money and make your choice about what you personally identify with, metal or not
That “Hottest Chicks in Metal” was such an insult to legitimate female musicians in metal.
Thank you!!!!
Personally, I’ve found that in the metal scene, if a woman acts like one of the boys, she gets treated like one of the boys. I know a few female metal fans who are treated no differently than guy metal fans, particularly because they come across as legitimate, genuine fans of the music. They’re generally a bit tomboyish though. It seems to me that girls that are regarded as sex objects in the metal scene are regarded that way because they *choose* to convey that image. Simple advice: don’t dress and behave like a hussy. I know more than a few girls whose raison d’etre seems to be to have sex with various metal bands. Guys are suspicious of girls like this, qua metal fans. Maybe I’m making a huge and unjustified assumption here: that the girls who dress and act like tramps aren’t real metal fans.
Part of the reason that metal is largely a boy’s club is that the aesthetic simply does not appeal to most girls. They just don’t give a shit about it. It’s not a very feminine-friendly kind of aesthetic given what it is fundamentally. And when some girl does try to enter the metal scene, well, you’re talking about a scene populated by guys who generally are kind of “outsiders” and are pretty awkward with women generally. It’s no wonder that you’re going to encounter some strange attitudes. I think a lot of metal music is guys *very indirectly* working out some frustrations that they have with lack of social success, girls, etc.
In actual day to day behavior, though, I’ve seen a lot more of a conservative and “chivalrous” attitude among metal guys than among a lot of other guys in the broader culture. I don’t think there’s outright misogyny in the metal scene. I think the relationship between metal subculture and women is weird and complex and hard to pin down precisely. I don’t know…is chivalry sexist? I can’t keep up with what feminists are up to these days.
I personally feel no responsibility to anyone in metal, at shows. I am there for my reasons and I couldn’t care less about yours. Let alone your gender.
In my circles, women are respected as equals as any other. Just like males, if they don’t want respect, they don’t get it. If they’re there to get laid, then that’s their choice and not mine. I surround myself with those I want to be surrounded by. That said, I know several women in my international circle that are enthusiasts and love metal just as much as I do, and for that, they earned my respect, just like any other male, and it really doesn’t matter what their gender is.
Honestly, I couldn’t care less what reason anyone has to be at a show. I’m there for my purpose, and that’s it. The only people I hate are windmillers because it’s all about them.
Maybe I’m missing the point by seeing women as equals and those with other purposes are not on my radar. I can only worry about my own life, my own circle, my family, and my friends.
this may be a little off topic, but I’m still finding metal has an unfortunate attachment to white power… AT the deicide toronto show a couple months back, there was certainly a few. Not instantly recognizable, but when you start to see the details like white power crosses tattooed on forearms, you feel like things aren’t always positive and forward facing in metal.
It bugs me too to see dudes grabbing tits in the pit, and then playing it off as an accidental bump. Yeah right.
As a community we need to be quick to approach these issues. sexism and racism have no place in my metal community.
Great, personal article. There’s no denying that sexism runs rampant in metal, but I think it’s slowly getting better. The machismo factor probably won’t go away any time soon, but you need to look at men as a whole in this case–the phrase “boys will be boys” exists for a reason.
I recently wrote an article for OurStage.com (http://bit.ly/l9JGe8) that talked about the great women in metal who were sort of breaking the stereotypes, and I think it’s something that needs to happen a lot more. While I have no problems with bands like Epica, Lacuna Coil, and Nightwish, they’re helping perpetuate the stereotype that women are all too soft and dainty for the metal world (which is certainly not the case).
That being said, I think the new metal styles to be born in the last few years are a lot more accessible, and less of a boys club (things like “djent”). Hopefully things make a real change for the better.
Thank-you for saying a lot of things that needed to be said.
Great piece, Beth. Embedded sexism very much still exists, and often times the “it’s not my problem” attitude or turning a blind eye is as harmful as those who practice outright misogyny. When people keep their eyes closed, it’s hard to see what’s happening around them.
So much of this is what I was trying to get across to people in my local scene. Unsurprisingly, few gave a fuck and I just called that good ol’ marginalizing term, PC.
Thank you for opening up about your past and articulating the elements of this awful issue that plagues so much of the heavy music we all love.
Fantastic article!
It’s an unfortunate thing that women can’t go to shows without being ogled if they’re even remotely good looking, or completely ignored if they don’t look the part of a vixen. The music should be the focus at all times no matter the gender of the band members or the gender of the crowd.
Going to a show should be a fun experience not a test to see how much crude behavior one can stomach for an evening. My wife LOVES metal, and she also loves going to shows, but sometimes it can be an irritating experience due to the general overwhelming misogynistic attitude of the crowd.
I’ve also been to shows where dudes have actually tried to fight some women because they refused to be groped. I will say this though it’s amazing how fast pansies like that will do a 180 when confronted with a 6′2″ 280lbs guy that looks more than a little pissed.
Guys need to look out for the women in the crowds at metal shows, not because they are weaker than us, but because it’s the right thing to do.
DMH
I remember watching Karyn Crisis and Alicia of 13 endure all sorts of sexist and misogynist behavior in the early 90’s — they really broke barriers for women as extreme metal vocalists. Hell, I remember people turning their backs on Karyn when she performed because “chicks shouldn’t sing like that” and because her lyrics called them out on their dumb-ass behavior. Things have certainly changed since then. There are more women in metal than ever, women who are respected front-people for their bands, whose music is taken seriously. But the problems haven’t entirely gone away either.
This was a great blog post. Articles like this is why I respect and appreciate Invisible Oranges and its audience.
Thank you for the honesty. It appears we grew up around the same time, and your story hits close to home in many ways.
The best we can do as ‘humans’ is to openly and actively listen to the opinions and experiences of others and weigh them as equally as our own, when we determine our attitudes, behaviours, and generally course in life.
There is room for everyone at the table, for it is the voices of all in the community that will shape our future. Anything else is basically oppression.
P.S. David Pankey, 39…if I ever see you again this this life, you are a dead man.
i am a legitimate fan of heavy music and i love going to gigs but i’m not going to stop dressing how i want just because of the attitudes of guys in the crowd. i don’t feel comfortable in a pair of jeans compared to a skirt and tights. i don’t want to be a tomboy, i like being girly and feminine but i also like watching bands. i don’t want to be perceived as being intentionally ’sexual’ just because i don’t want to hide away under a cap and a hoodie. i don’t feel confident going out without doing my hair or make up. this doesn’t make me a poser in any ‘metal scene’, it’s just my personal views.
Dear Beth,
Thank you for such a great article on the plight we face as women in the metal scene. I could not relate to/ agree with it anymore.
For those of you interested in additional reading on the topic of gender and metal, Chapter 4 of Robert Walser’s Running With the Devil (1993) is still the academic benchmark on that topic.
I think that this may vary from region to region and genre scene to scene, in fairness. Although there are key issues raised here, it’s not really a guarantee that women will be fondled at each metal show or even shown courtesy in the crowd. In which case, Beth’s point about being prepared rings true though for some gender may not even be the main issue at gigs – there’s also age and other factors to consider (i.e. if the audience is mainly composed of young kids, mostly older people, etc.)
While treatment at shows is something to bear in mind, it’s not necessarily clear-cut.
I’d also like to argue (again) that perhaps Otep and Angela Gossow aren’t really the best examples of women in the metal world except from a very mainstream POV – what about the women who were in underground thrash, speed and heavy metal bands during the 80’s/90’s, or even ladies like Lilith Necrobitch in Korgull the Exterminator? These are underground examples sure, but it would be interesting to see more reference to this sector of metal when discussing music scenes and gender as opposed to the more typical names being cited so often (Gossow and Otep).
Just my two cents.
Thank you for writing this; it’s absolutely wonderful.
Great piece, and thanks so much for sharing it. I think that things have been getting better within the metal scene over time, but there is a long way to go and we should work to make it better. Part of the improvement is that misogynistic lyrics are much less common than they used to be; at least, it seems that way to me. Much worse, though, is the kind of commentary you still see — so many metal blogs and even magazines make such a point to talk about women in metal in terms of their attractiveness and fuckability and don’t give much attention to their musicianship or even for that matter address them as human beings. There are exceptions to this, of course, which is why I love Invisible Oranges and also love Decibel Magazine (which is pretty good on these issues and even has openly mocked Revolver several times for their highly sexist “hottest chicks in metal” features and things like that).
With that said, I want to point out that people who express the attitude that I’ve already seen in these comments, that women who dress “slutty” (whatever that means) to metal shows are for some reason less deserving of respect, because they don’t look like they take the music seriously, or whatever: that attitude on your part is a big part of the problem. A woman shouldn’t have to prove herself by dressing the way you think is appropriate in order to deserve your respect as a legitimate metal fan. And who are you to be making that determination anyway? Women should dress however the hell they feel like it to metal shows. You should respect them like you respect the rest of your fellow fans there, however they’re dressed. She doesn’t have to prove herself to you; you’re not the gatekeeper of the show.
It’s amazing to me sometimes just how conservative metal fans can be (which was one of the great points made by the author of this piece). My attitude is “live and let live,” and a lot of my favorite metal musicians reflect this ethos as well in their work.
Great article.
I wrote on the topic of women and metal here: http://fullmetalattorney.blogspot.com/2011/03/women-in-metal.html
My observations–from reading media more than anything, since I don’t really personally know or hang out with, well, anyone, let alone fellow metalheads–are that metal is actually better at gender equality than the mainstream. Listen to top 40 radio (if you dare) or pick up a Rolling Stone, and you’ll immediately see it’s more sexist than metal.
As a man, who has never personally met a metalhead woman, I’m having a hard time really relating to your article. But what I picked up on was that you listened to the music in spite of lyrics that you find troublesome. I think this is something we Christian metalheads have to deal with a lot. The best solution, I find, is to listen to bands with vocalists you can’t understand, whether it’s their vocal style or because they’re singing in a different language.
@ pete
I hope you’re not referring to an iron cross as a white power symbol. It can be, but I think between metalheads, bikers, and people proud of German ancestry, it’s been taken back from the Nazis. I think you’re misinterpreting it, unless there’s some other cue you’re picking up on.
Very well-written, and, like Metalcakes mentioned, for saying a lot of things that needed to be said.
Wonderful piece, Beth. Wonderfully written, too. It takes a lot of courage to share something like this.
In fairness, the idea of the woman as trickster-vixen-succubus in music predates “Evil Woman,” by many decades. It’s a standard blues template. There are some blues numbers that are outright sexist by today’s standards and advocate domestic violence. Little Walter’s “Boom Boom” is about a guy who tracks down and beats the crap out of an unfaithful lover. Sonny Boy Williamson’s “Your Funeral, My Trial,” is a threat to a lover; do what I say or you’ll be dead and I will be in jail.
This kind of backwards thinking isn’t limited to metal, either. When I grew up the jocks had many more issues of entitlement around women than people who listened to metal. It’s particularly bad in rap where women in thongs have been paraded around as window dressing since the 1980s. I’d like to think metal has outgrown a lot of the idiocy spawned by bands like Motley Crue and WASP.
Also, I wonder if people who need the “ground rules” you laid out at the end aren’t already lost causes…
Let’s face it: Metal isn’t high IQ music–when I was a teenage metalhead in the mid 80’s, we didn’t sit around and discuss social issues over tea–it was a “youth gone wild” for our “metal health” to “shout at the devil” (in all its forms, like the PMRC). Nor is metal particularly progressive when it comes to social acceptance issues, be it race or gender or sexual orientation like punk rock was. There was also not much redeeming value in its messages for a time; however, there also wasn’t much redeeming value in anything else either–Reagonomics, televangelism or “greed is good” philosophies. It was, and still is, a middle class white boy social club. It doesn’t take a genius to realize that as you look around a concert venue–but it also doesn’t take a genius to realize that it doesn’t take much to rebel against when you’re primed and ready to rebel against ANYTHING. And, as all social clubs, changes of attitudes from within grind slowly. I’ve often wondered what the effect would have been if Twisted Sister had used a girl behind that school desk to scream “I WANNA ROCK” instead of a burned out looking guy in their video. That would have been something. Instead, we got endless hours of Tawny Kitaen grinding all over a Corvette while David Coverdale bellowed lyric after lyric of different ways to bed a woman. My point is that it was no different than an athletic club: testosterone only. Thankfully, much has changed, and will change more over time, and we should choose to inspire and be inspired by only those things that strive more towards that equality, and support them. I feel thankful that I’ve had, and have, a number of strong women in my life–I got more, and more useful, advice from them than anybody, and more of those types of women fronting bands and being active will help change it hopefully for good.
More than the scene at metal shows, it bugs me how metal critics and some fans disregard female bands. It’s almost as if for every female in the band, there is twice as much dismissal of the band itself. Kittie is an excellent example. They have some angry, feminist lyrics (which to me seem right at home in the sound of metal) that perhaps male fans can’t identify with as well as women can. And of course, men dominate the music press. And we female fans proceed to doubt our own tastes!
Based on my personal experiences with meeting female metalheads from different parts of the world, they generally do know how to balance superior intelligence, mental and physical toughness, and a genuine love for the music while maintaining their femininity and respectability.
I’m sorry, but that was a lame article. It lacked focus and depth. It wavered between female contributions to the metal scene and complaints about the many sexist aspects of the metal scene, without really exploring either. The omission of the contributions of women like Karyn Crisis, Tairrie B, and even the chickadees from Kittie was detrimental. And starting out every damn article with “I got raped” is an utter hack community college gender studies move. Maybe this could have been used as an opportunity to introduce people to amazing up and comers like Laura Christine of Warface, but no.
The article posted by Full Metal Attorney makes a very important point: women are making some of the most innovative underground metal out there right now, and everyone should go check it out. The more mainstream you go with metal, the more sexism you’re going to find, because guess what? The mainstream is *gasp* sexist! Metal music has a rep for being a testosterone-fueled boy’s club, but rep and reality often don’t mesh. I was going to all-ages metal shows in full riot grrl gear when I was fourteen, and I had far fewer problems than one might expect in that situation. This was in Southern California though; I imagine if I was in Wisconsin it might have been different.
I have seen so many metal bands with female members, NOT just singers, and it really grinds my gears to see an ostensibly “feminist” article come off so under-researched and negative.
Great article. Way to speak up for us women who just want to see the band without being nearly molested.
RESPECT!!!
The most Metal person I know and will probably ever know is a women and she put’s most guy’s to shame.
Metal, like life in general, obeys to the basic rules of collective living with its fair share of genius and idiocy; it all depends on the perspective you have on it, what’s good for one isn’t for an other. Metal failed to be an alternative to the world it so dearly despises: It just follows the rules of the outcasts, being themselves a part of society. A bunch of black sheep is still a heard and obeys heard mentality.
Thanks for all the comments. I’m so glad so many people enjoyed this piece and felt it was important.
@Supreme: Women should not have to act “like the guys” in order to be respected. They should be respected no matter what they’re wearing. A woman in a skimpy outfit is not less worthy of esteem. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/
@Glenn: thanks for mentioning Walser. His entire book is brilliant.
@Jason: I don’t agree that metal is universally “low-IQ music.” There are examples of that, sure, but there are also examples of smart, literate metal, particularly in power/epic/folk, but elsewhere too. Plenty of thrash bands tackled weighty political, cultural, and economic topics. There was a time when many metal fans didn’t think of themselves as particularly smart or intellectual, I suspect because so many of them had been told they were dumb (either for listening to metal, or independently of that), but even that’s changing. I don’t think you can argue, as a reader of Invisible Oranges, that metal and intelligence can’t go together.
Interesting article. As a woman who grew up right around the same time as you (13 in ‘89 and started playing guitar then as well), I can see some of what you’re saying. I played guitar, was in metal and punk bands, went to shows (and at the time my dress code was very much your second option – band shirt, jeans, etc. and I hung out with mostly guys) I was the only girl to play guitar at my school, and when I’d put up ads at my local music shop (this is what we did pre internet – haha) looking for other musicians, I would get all sorts of calls from guys looking for a date, not to join a band. I didn’t let it discourage me, I eventually found people to play music with, was taken seriously by my peers as a musician and had a lot of fun. The only thing is, I refuse to let my gender define me, to tell me who I’m “supposed to be”, what I “should be” doing, screw that, I love music, I played in bands, I hung out with musicians, I worked in the music industry, and started my own business. At the same time I’ve got my feminine side firmly intact, wear makeup, wear dresses, dated boys (but only ones who had the same taste in music!) before I got married, and am fully a three dimensional person.
I just don’t go in for all these gender debates, people are people, they do what they want and if someone doesn’t think you should be there because of your gender, do it anyways! There are closed-minded people everywhere, if everyone listened to what every nay-sayer said, nothing would ever get done!
While I tend to agree with a lot in this article. It makes one glaring mistake that most special interest topics do: It makes no attempt what so ever to understand or even humanize the people on the other side of the topic.
Telling me what I can do to make women feel more accepted? I’ll be painfully blunt here. I’m not at a metal show to make you feel accepted or unaccepted. In fact, I’m not there for you at all. I really don’t care one way or the other if there are any female metal fans in the crowd or not.
I’ve met many female metal musicians in the 7+ years I spent playing in a band. If I treated them any differently It was far from intentional. I got to know some of them very well over the years and got along just fine with them.
As the article makes a huge effort in pointing out. Metal is by and large composed of social outcasts and rebels. This typically doesn’t make for the most socially adept individuals. The author of the articles herself admits to having been shy and socially awkward.
Guess what, It’s no different for the guys. At least It wasn’t for me. I would go as far as claiming most male metal heads really don’t know how to talk to the opposite sex. Hell the miniscule amount of times I was actually hit on by a girl at a metal show I clammed up and had no idea what to say or how to react.
This isn’t an excuse for any guys being downright assholes. But try and keep in mind that, for the most part, guys at metal shows may be just as socially uncomfortable toward you as you are towards them.
kick ass. i really appreciate your perspective.
though i think grind has been a bit better than most metal on bringing women into the fold as equals (thanks disrupt/nuclear death for breaking that ground), i was thinking the other day about the gender/racial disparities in my musical collection. not sure yet how to address that.
and ugh. hottest chicks in metal. i ranted about that on my blog once. the only comment i got was your typical internet asshole “ur a fag” response. i hate humanity a lot of days.
I don’t agree that metal is universally “low-IQ music.”
i’d go even further and say that tying musical taste to intelligence is engaging more in social positioning than anything related to the arts.
anyway, good essay. the male gaze and a sort of ambient misogyny is thick in many musical genres, though i think FMA above might have a point about it being (at face value) less worse compared to modern r&b or pop, and definitely better than hip hop. whether being better than shitty is worth clapping about is another story.
@Jeffrey, thanks for that comment. You make an excellent and very valid point.
This article was one of the best and most honest that I’ve read on the subject. But as for what women can do to make their scenes better, there’s one more you didn’t spell out. As always, they can start bands.
I’ve listened to kittie, arch enemy, and the agonist, among others, and while it’s cute to hear a woman growling metal, it’s obviously not their thing.
metal is conflict, metal is aggro, is blood, is violence, is the male war instinct at it’s best, any femenine attempt ai it will fail.
arch enemy and the agonist havent’t failed because they keep being an all male bands with just one woman
female musicians are lame
just make a youtube search among all the people making metal covers at home, for every not-so-bad female guitar player, there are fifty kickass male players
among those videos there are a few of asian girls who are the purest technical perfection, like their asian gymnasts and prodigy musician kids, so perfect that their music sounds soulless and empty, is like listening at a midi ringtone.
just tell me, what is the female equialent of Steve Vai, of the Satch, Eddie Van Halen, Gene Hoglan or Mike Portnoy?
I agree, you all look super cute strumming an electrig guitar, but seriously, stop complaining, put on your groupie outfit and be happy.
BTW, seriously, sorry about what happened to you, but don’t use it as an excuse to strip metal of its inherent manliness.
I think I should be offended by you, but I am not.
I agree that metal is about power and “blood on ice”. But there is no denying that metal music is also deeply sensitive. Some emotions, not only anger and frustration but sadness and love are portrayed more realistically and vividly in metal than in any other genre of music.
These are emotions both men and women experience equally. Do you think we women never get so angry that we want to kill or just let go in a mosh pit? I agree that we might not be as physically strong as most men, but tell me, how many men you meet everyday would be brave enough to jump into a pit? Metal is not for EVERYONE. It is for those who are willing to embrace a darker, louder facets of life. Whether you’re a man, a woman, both or neither, or whether you’re black, white or Asian, does not matter.
I picked up a guitar when I was 13 and the comments I got were not pretty. My dad somehow thought it was unnecessary for me to spend time learning music and made a fuzz about taking me to class. My mom took me by bus a few times (she cannot drive) and this soon became too much of a hassle. I went to an all-girls Buddhist school at the time and there were definitely no fellow “metalheads” there. For a while, I tried learning from UltimateGuitar etc. but somewhere down the line, I gave up. A few years later, when I was old enough to navigate the cities on my own, I picked up the violin (definitely a very feminine instrument) and made some progress with it. Giving up on the guitar is one of the biggest regrets I have in life (and hopefully one I will overcome someday soon).
But what I want you to understand is that women the world over probably face similar circumstances. Going to gigs can be very intimidating if you are alone and a female. If metal was more accessible, I bet you would see more women on stage and on youtube kicking serious ass!
STFU. You have the most retarded view of metal I’ve ever seen.
Fantastic article. As a female metalhead I think the idea of the Hottest Chicks in Metal would be alright if it were balanced with a Hottest Guys in Metal. But alas, it’s not. At least not yet. Having been to all types of concerts, my experience has been metal shows tend to have fewer ogling guys than most. I was recently at an Industrial club with my son’s girlfriend where I got a high five from someone for being the old lady in the club. Now that was refreshing!
Women like Angela Gossow and Lita Ford, while looking sexy onstage take their jobs seriously and shouldn’t be looked down upon for being beautiful women and dressing provocatively. My philosophy has always been, if you’ve got it, flaunt it. But be prepared to take what comes with it.
My experience as a female metalhead has always been respectful when interacting with other metalheads, both male and female. The only issues I have had have been with people who don’t listen to metal and don’t get why I do. As a woman metalhead who is older than most (I’m 51) I am constantly amazed by how narrow minded people who don’t get metal are. Just because we listen to metal doesn’t mean we are stereotypes!
@ Metalgrandma
You’re awesome. That’s all I have to say about that.
@ Malisha
No, it wasn’t the best written article, but I think we could all follow and appreciate her train of thought and the issues she raised. When something hits that close to home for an author, and they have a lot to say about it, it’s very difficult to stick to a narrow, focused topic.
@ Jason
You sound very intelligent, but your assertion that metal is dumb is . . . dumb. Yeah, there’s lots of dumb metal out there. But it has a lot of smart stuff too, and that came before the dumb. Sabbath and Maiden had some pretty smart music, and it wasn’t until Van Shit Halen that idiocy was introduced to the equation.
As a female guitar player in a metal band, I loved this article. I was asked early on in the bands career to do the “hottest chicks in metal” revolver magazine thing. I said no..so I love it being brought to light all the reasons I didn’t want to do it.
After reading/scanning over this article and comments I believe there is one serious, serious omission to the text. I will correct that omission.
Girlschool: “Demolition” (1980), “Hit and Run” (1981), “Screaming Blue Murder” (1982).
Fixed.
The new Autopsy song “Dirty Gore Whore” is not going to be a favorite of many commenters (or the author), it would seem. In our world of extreme music and lyrics, even I found the content of this particular song to be shocking. Another commenter mentioned some of the Cannibal Corpse songs that obviously take such an over-the-top approach (“Fucked With a Knife” / “Stripped, Raped, and Strangled”), that they aren’t a real affront to women b/c, I mean, they’re fantastically outlandish. Those quoted from GNR, however, seem more dangerous due to their proximity with reality. I’d agree with that. These Autopsy, lyrics, however, just left me a little cold despite the cartoonishness. Perhaps that’s the idea. To repulse. What do you think? http://bit.ly/DirtyGoreHorror
It’s a shame, too… the music (like the rest of the album) is sick in the absolute BEST possible way…
Looks like more than a few posters took me to task for saying metal wasn’t “high IQ music”–I’ll take my lumps, and further explain what I meant. Any art form is about creativity and authenticity, and what I meant was that in my formative metal years, there was more of the latter and less of the former: with few notable exceptions, it was the Motley Crue’s, the Dokkens, the Ratt’s and Twisted Sisters with the videos and such–authentically stupid. Of course you also had Metallica, Iron Maiden and Queensryche et al, but they weren’t all over the radio and MTV–you had a one sided view, and what those guys represented of the female gender was terrible to say the least, and horribly skewed–definitely not music that made you think, and most definitely NOT exclusive to metal music either (that could be a whole other post). Take a look at only old Hit Parader from the 80’s–awful for the most part. Thankfully that was swept away, and a more representative harmony of creativity and authenticity began to form. However, any replay of Heavy Metal Parking Lot will show you the kind of fans I often saw/met at shows–more meatheads than metalheads, and I stand by that. It’s way different today, with the music industry the way it is now, fans’ inclusive attitudes and media savvy at its peak (but tell me you still don’t laugh whenever you scroll thru your itunes collection and see the funniest and dumbest song titles ever, c’mon)–I still remember the first time I learned White Zombie had a bass player who happened to be a woman, and it was “wow, that’s cool!’ and it changed my thinking. It also might be that otherwise intelligent people thought that going to a show, or hanging with their male metal peers gave them license to be/act dumb–I’m certainly guilty of that, and its also true that I got asked “why do you listen to that music?” or told “that music’s stupid” more than once. One thing’s for sure, metal won’t creatively thrive or survive without women’s input, and I only wish it had happened sooner.
Jo Bench.
How many metal-related websites are there today that can spark such controversya around a topic? Not many, certainly.
This is one of the reasons I come back here every single day. Its editors are not afraid to deal with polemic topics, such as this one.
Beth–Amazing article. Thank you!
Boy, talk about not burying your lead. Amazing article, thanks.
Metal is made up mostly of people who can tolerate things like white power and sexism. Metal is the music of the white male with visions of conquest and domination. Dominating by force, rape, murder, victimizing and mocking the weak and unfit along the way on the path to glory, metal is the music of the white male devil.
I’ve been going to metal shows for over twenty years now, and the number of women I see at these events has grown exponentially just in the last 5 or so. It’s so cool to see this style of music becoming less threatening to women and also more welcoming. I’m spoiled in that I live in Portland, OR where egalitarian views are held by a majority of folks, but it’s still gratifying to see amazing music being celebrated without the sausage party vibe. I hope this continues forever.
@Malisha why the dig against the midwest? As an Indiana native and a person who has been to shows all over the midwest I can definitely say that most of the metalheads and punks are just as progressive as they are anywhere else. Yes, I’ve been to shows in plenty of other states as well.
@Beth. I really enjoy your article, and find that sexism is a very real problem in our society and probably in the more mainstream areas of metal culture. Being involved in the DIY punk and hardcore scene in the midwest though, and traveling a bit with the few bands I’ve played in has left me with the impression that at least in the DIY scene there seems to be almost a lack of sexuality at shows.
Anyone can express anger and find catharsis in rage and I’ve seen some women fronting bands who do it just as well as the boys. When I’m at a show sex is the last thing on my mind.
I personally feel like it’s unfair to single out the metal “scene” when discussing sexism. If a girl chooses to wear an outfit exposing herself, I guarantee she will get the same negative treatment most places she would go. I’ve seen it on tv, in bars, on the street, and at non-metal shows through all walks of life. The people who are interested in things for the right reasons can detect others like them, male or female, and that goes for ANY hobby/interest. Male posers get hassled just as much as females, if not more. The guys who would treat a woman unfairly at a show are clearly there for the wrong reasons, so they are no more innocent or guilty than females who go to shows for attention. A scumbag is a scumbag. Who cares what kind of music some of them happen to listen to? Metal is no exception nor an elite boys club as many like to think. Women get exploited and mistreated all over the place, especially in mainstream media. (and for the record, using a female representation of a demon is putting her in a place of power, especially in music that glorifies evil. If a woman controlling and captivating a man doesn’t define power, I don’t know what does, so that’s a bad example to me.)
I have to say as a musician involved in the metal scene (fringe metal that is) I have not really experienced the blatant sexism that you see with bands like guns n roses ect. If anything i have found much support from my male counterparts as individuals. I would have to say that sexism that does exist is subtle and has to do with what standards of behavior you are held to in terms of being social (dress like a dude but don’t talk like one or have strong opinions), and also how much you emulate your male musician counterparts in your music. This stuff is cultural and not any worse in metal than anywhere else. Mostly, What i have found, is that over the years there are more and more women showing up, showing up without ‘dates’, and showing up to hear or play the music. Metal fans tend to be more open minded than any other group (at least here in pdx) in terms of crossover, progressive music, weird music in general. of course i am sheltered by ‘art metal’ and the west coast….I also have my doubts that girls playing heavy or progressive music are really taken very seriously….but that goes for corporate america as well-way worse….what to do?
p.s. Metal heads have always been nicer to me than non metal heads both interms of being able to socialize, and as musical peers. but i am kind of seeing an indy-ization of metal, and some metal snobbery that i never noticed much before-and these people tend to act a little more sexist in my opinion.
As far as the whole act like a bitch get treated like one concept. I disagree. no matter how a person acts, they should not be treated as a sub-human or object. this assumes that some females are deserving of more than others because of what they choose to wear which isnt really as sexist as it is classicist.
I have to agree with the statement about the indy-ization of metal, snobbery, etc. I listen to a lot of different kinds of music and I’ve lived in a few different cities. I actually meet many more men who genuinely respect women, and women who respect themselves and other women, in scenes centered around punk, hardcore, and metal than I do in a lot of indie type music scenes. Sometimes, it’s almost like the quieter the music is the more restrictive I’m going to find the gender roles.
Thanks for the article!
@Chris Dalton Yeah, You right Girlschool is amazing!
Well, this is a great article! i almost agree with everything, speccially the part of the sexism, yeah, it was/is a veri sexist genre!
The ideas and rules is something that fortunately are being brokened, or that, or me in metal rules doesn’t exist, the thing is, we just need live form metal and love it!
at the part of the “uniform”, well maybe in earies 80’s or that time, it was maybe necessary, which, i almost agree that actually not, but i don’t agree wit calling it “uniform”, just because, it maybe can be a way, or a sterotype, or something like that, but if someone dress like that actually, means that he/she likes it, and do it cause maybe is the most similar thing to look like his/her idol, it is common when someone is a teen, and it’s not bad.
Lot of good ideas are on this! \m/
just throwing this into a long dead topic, but I would imagine Keith/Mina would be able to shed some more light on this topic now!
http://www.metalinjection.net/shocking-revelations/life-agonys-keith-caputo-underwent-sex-change-operation
in the words of steel panther “bitch it wont suck itself”
It is interesting to read about other women’s experience with heavy metal. The genre is undoubtably sexist – and I think that is attributable to the hyper “masculine” themes, and by that I mean what is culturally understood as masculine – but I think that literally ALL genres of music are sexist. Music is engendered as a masculine trait, read Marion Leonard’s “Gender in the Music Industry: Rock, Discourse and Girl Power” or Susan McClary’s “Feminine Endings” and you’ll understand why. However, that being said, I found when I was younger and attending metal shows – I have been going to metal shows for about a decade now – it felt much more hostile than it does now. I remember sensing this hostility and becoming introverted as a result, but now instead of being hostile I simply introduce myself and say “your first time seeing the band?” or something to that effect. Sometimes the person will ignore me, but 9 times out of 10 such questions will receive enthusiastic responses. Perhaps it’s due to people in the metal scene knowing me, but it is now rare that someone will grab my ass or give me shit. As for female fans, in my city they are pretty damn cool. We have everything from women like myself who obsess over covering every inch of their vest with patches, to women who dress like they would when they go to the club, to one particular girl who always wears an adorable dress and high heels and literally dances in the pit while headbanging at every single show I’ve ever been to. Women play guitars, drums, bass, keyboards and sing in popular bands, organize and promote festivals, write, photograph, and do PR. Clearly, my city has a very liberal scene because I’ve lived in Philadelphia, New York and Helsinki and things were much, MUCH worse in the American cities in terms of disparaging comments, constant sexual harassment, and a generally disinterested attitude from others. I think that type of attitude is constantly echoed on the internet because people become easily angered and threatened, which is then just echoed like the dip shit above. Sure, sexism is robust online, but take a look at Youtube and you’ll see racism and homophobia is just as bad. Hmm. Well, this is a complete mess of a statement. All I think is obvious is that as sexism increases on the internet, it decreases in person. The losers who can’t deal with chicks at metal shows are just that, and feel compelled to go online and spew out their vitriolic puerile nonsense. For all the women here, we will do just fine, and will continue to be ourselves and be part of the metal community.
Wonderful article! Even though the sexism in Metal is undeniable, it is far less rampant than in most other genres like pop and rap. I think one of the main reasons for this is that Metal relies less on visual appeal than other types of music. For instance Metal music videos (which are a bit of a rarity) become popular because of the sheer awesomeness of the band, and not because of the naked women in it.
We have a relatively small but very active and growing metal community in Sri Lanka. I have been attending gigs since I was about 16 and for all these years I have NEVER been groped in the dark or even received any ugly comments. I have always been treated with respect, learned much and made great friendships. Most guys are courteous and make sure you do not get hurt in the mosh. With the amount of alcohol and other things that are passed around at these events, this will indeed come as a surprise to many.
About the “dress code”, I agree that black is the uniform. But Metal stands for freedom of expression and even though we find a sense of liberation in the equality of black, we all find a way to add a zest of personality into what we wear. Personally, I choose denims and a (black) blouse/t-shirt, comfy shoes and sometimes a shawl. I think that is my way of unconsciously adding just a dash of femininity and South Asian exoticness to what I wear.
Also, a piece of advice to women- if you choose to go to a gig, go with an open mind. Go to have a good time and enjoy the music. If you are not familiar with the band or the particular sub-genre, ask someone and have a chat about it. Don’t be afraid to say you do not know. Most people are more than happy to talk about music for hours. (I do this quite often and trust me, I have learned SO MUCH!) Do not go to gigs because you want to post pictures on Facebook. Do not go because you think it will be easy to get a guy or whatever. People will recognize you as a poser and the repercussions will not be pretty
I am an avid concert goer. Have been for years. I have been groped, fondled, elbowed (not sure if accidental)…But the groping has also happened at work, school, by neighborhood kids…who didn’t listen to heavy metal. When you have a large crowd of people (sometimes small) you’re gonna get those few guys who think its ok to grab women. They are everywhere. I am big chested and some men have no control! I find myself wearing clothes that aren’t sexy, at all, so i’ll be left alone. But I do like to dress a little sexy and won’t because the sexier you dress the more hands that grab. When you have hundreds of sweaty bodies touching, few random women, drunk guys, loud music…its gonna happen. I’m know your not trying to get our pity, but I’m very sorry about the rape.
You know i will say this im sorry what happened to you when you were younger but many women have just come on the scene really both in fan and musicians women don’t get a lot of respect mainly cause of how they carry themself.
If a woman is gonna use her body during photo shoots promoting the band and so on i feel she has no right to scream sexism men have basicly created this music and molded it from the start the last boys club and most women cant stand it you know what i say to that TOUGH FUCKIN SHIT! in the dark days of metal when it was just starting you could barely rub two women together at a show no somehow we should re-arrange everything cause women want in.
Since women have showed up it has not been the best how many women have been the cause of bands breaking up to metal becoming watered down less metal goth metal was a style i at one time enjoyed but now if you dont have a female singer and a bunch of slow songs there is something missing also my problem with what is being said a concert/club show is the last place where real men like me hang where we can be ourself and now you guys wanna invade it change it and im just not having it and is why i go deeper and deeper in black metal and death metal.-hellhammer
As a female metal fan, I don’t want ANYTHING “rearranged”.
You always find a poser or two at gigs, and whether they are male or female, they are easy to spot. Female posers might be the type to try and get a bit of attention with revealing clothes and gothic make-up. No offence to anyone who wishes to dress that way, but I’ve been going to gigs in Sri Lanka and a few times in the US wearing tops and jeans and slippers since I was 16 and I have NEVER experienced any harassment of any sort.
Most things about metal are “politically incorrect”. That is what it is celebrated in this special genre of music, making it all the marginalized kids’ abode. Torture, murder and necrophilia- anything goes. So it is no wonder that rape also makes symbolic appearances in the lyrics, artwork and stage shows. I agree that their should be a little sensitivity, but then again, it is metal we are talking about. Isn’t it the freedom, the depravity, the ‘fuck-you’ attitude what made us love metal in the first place?
Female metal fans don’t want to walk in free. We don’t want free booze. We are there for the music, just like you. All we ask is that we be treated as a humans.
Fuck yes. Spot on. The only thing I would challenge is saying girls who dress revealing are posers- I’d argue a good percentage of those women feel great because they dress how they want to dress. Just because someone emphasizes their femininity doesn’t mean they aren’t there because they love the music to. I wear jeans, a tshirt, and a metal vest to shows, but that doesn’t make me better than anyone else.
Agreed. Everyone has the freedom to whatever they want. I have a secret stash of ultra-feminine little black dresses that I bring out on special occasions
yes i totally agree with hellhammer. we can’t change metal traditions just because women want it.
and the question is not about how you’re clothing and what kind of makeup you do. the question is why do you think we guys must give to you privileges cause you are a woman?
compromise and tolerance – that’s what women bring everywhere they appear. but metal is not about compromises.
clam down girls. you get respect if you deserve it. nobody must respect you because you’re a woman. also i think metal was created by men and it is for men. there is no “sexism” or so called discrimination, this is just men’s territory. call me sexist if you wish but it is obvious that women’s presence makes everything including metal subculture much more banal and too tolerant. if you feel rejection in male club then just prove what you’re worth it to be amongst them instead of getting pity.
We are not asking for pity in any way shape or form. It’s more about getting treated like we are there for music, instead of ignored because we have vaginas.
and what’s wrong with it when you’re ignored? if you’re there for music – why do you want attention? just listen to the music and ignore these “terrible chauvinists who take no notice on me although i’m a girl”.
Computers were invented by men, should it be for men? Do you hear what you’re saying pal?sorry we make metal banal and too tolerant – what do you mean by “too tolerant ” btw? seriously, i dont get it- we’ll get out of your way. Stay home, make you dinner and have sex with you when ever you want.
Who is asking for a change of metal traditions? We just want the same treatment and respect that men get in the metal community. We like metal for the same reasons as you guys do.
and the style of metal i like the most is Black metal and i would say i agree with metaliac women bring compromise everywhere they go as they do their purse.
and i can just tell women one thing i may not know everything but i have had my nose to the underground since it started and black metal is not gonna compromise for anyone male or female you accept the music and the sub-culture for what it is or you find another sand box to play in thats how i see it anyway.
now this is where i hate when women bring up sexism or men are sexist in metal to me women have no leg to truly stand on glam metal had like a 90% female audience and all they sang about how women are whores that they are use bunch of skanks and by the time they zip their pants up they will be forgotton yet women loved these bands and musicians.
I ask why? men never would degrade themself in such a way you would never find a group of guys loving girls bands in the same way just would never happen most of the bands i listen to dont sing about getting laid.
At the end of the day i do think women think we are here we like metal now lets change it to our liking that just isent gonna happen most men who play metal a lot of the time were shit on by women so now there not gonna all of a sudden change this a history and a Tradition in metal that should not be fucked with.
I also want to make clear i do love women and i do like to see women at shows if they are truly into the music hey im single and finding someone whos into the same things as you at the best of times can be a real bitch or damn near impossible i dont hate women and dont even think i should have to say it but i also know women and fourms like this people will cherry pick the things i say im a metalhead into extreme metal no more can be said.
That’s an interesting comment, as I am sure a lot of people go into metal thinking “let’s change it to our liking” – hence the hundreds of thousands of us that play in bands, make our shows, and make a local scene. I more think what a lot of us are fighting back against is the notion that we can’t be into music the same way as men. But it is interesting to bring up black metal, because I’ve often noticed way more women at black metal shows – Waitain, Agalloch, Marduk and Mayhem recently had close to gender parity in my city – and that one seems to be great. That subgenre hates all people equally, so sexism isn’t overt.
As for glam metal- it no longer is big, and things have changed largely, so I am not sure that’s a particularly fair comparison. I mean, doom has TONS of women, but people don’t sing about fucking sluts in that genre. I get what you’re saying about the history of metal being peppered by women who treat men badly, but women get treated similarly by men and I would say the treatment isn’t personified at metal shows where it often is against women. Even looking at other genres like ultra violent pornogrind against men is far rarer than that against women. Again, gender disparity. But I think a lot of men and women alike mistake women wanting to be treated well as “I WANT ATTENTION” or “I WANT EVERYONE TO LIKE ME”. It’s not that. I know some dudes in my city don’t like me because their opinions differ than mine – which is completely fine, different strokes – but the treatment I’ve seen of women can be appalling. I’ve toured with female members who get grabbed at, commented at, been asked at shows where my boyfriend is and groped, and all that shit. No dude would do that to another dude. Why the fuck would they do it to a woman?
when you talk about ultra-violence against women in pornogrind lyrics you forget that men sing about it because men like to imagine it. it is PORN, and porn always about sex and girls. and it is GRIND and grind always about violence and killing/rape.
you ask why man does not molest to other man? because he is a heterosexual I guess. metal (black/death and similar) is violent thing. for example I often come to blows with some guy on a gig. it’s ok cause it’s metal and I’m damned metalhead and I’m ready for this shit. if you think it is too bad don’t go there listen to the music at home. or go but be prepared to every kind of trouble cause it is extreme and IT MUST STAY extreme and violent as in the days of old.
Pornogrind is porn? I thought it was just, you know, shock humor like the rest of grind. Anyway, porn is only about girls when it comes from heterosexual men.
I have to admit there are more women at black metal and death metal shows i do think some women tend to lump black metal with goth i have no idea why cause the two have very little in common granted there are more women around now then ever before but i wonder why that is something just says to me its to meet a guy i never meet women who like metal let alone black metal but like you say sure as shit there they are.
Going to death and black metal shows is also like hey these guys are extreme lets see how the other side lives i feel black metal has a fair bunch of people who are pagan,satanists, to national socialists, what does this have to do with the music well in black metal a lot its part of the sub-culture.
I dont know if i would agree with you on doom maybe goth metal for sure there are tons of women in goth metal i cant deny that well again i have to disagree men feeling up women or groped, as you called it i can’t say i have never seen it but you are talking such a low percentage of men who have done that and your also talking most guys who do we are talking 15-25 all ages show blow i know the bands love them cause they can rake in more money but us old school fans really hate them.
I have no problem with women liking heavy metal which seems to be the thing you think i do i dont hell when im looking for a girlfriend as shallow as it mind sound thats at the top of my list not does she have big tits or does she put on on the first date but does she like metal? if so what kind there is respecting women and then there are those woh want us to be a doormat im nobodys doormat.
My big example is otep i hate the band and hate the singer even more all she does is go off about respect well metalheads are like the romans we throw you in the arena give you a sword and say show us what you got that band has shown me all they have is liberal wining.
Aways going off about shes a woman and if she does not get respect she is gonna quit that one i wish she would keep her word on that one i always thought she sounds like courtney loves bastard child also i could care less about some skanks anti-male Rhetoric.
about black death metal. I’m a big fan of this genres and when I look at the old school black death scene of 80-s I see strong male-dominated scene and really Cult albums. the golden age. today the scene totally sucks. but women are respected…
do you know why I’m not too happy about women in extreme sub-genres of metal? because of women’s cult of respect and rights. women everywhere (even in metal!) talk about discrimination, about their rights, about gender parity etc. it seems you girls are paranoic, you see everywhere total discrimination and violation of your rights. you talk to me about parity, ok. but there IS parity already. you come to the shows and gigs and nobody hits you or banishes you everyone looks at you and says what a beautyful girl. why the christ it is not enough? what do you want else? what kind of “respect”? there are thousands of fools who listen to the bands only because there are female members. do you think you’re discriminated still? today men are discriminated. we have nothing for us. we can’t do nothing purely male.
women are ok when they understand that it is alright with their precious rights and all the world respect them every second.
You guys are getting your panties in a bunch!
As a female metal fan, I don’t want metal to change. I want to see it grow and become even better over the years, if possible. I want the local scenes to stay alive for another hundred years, so that my children’s children may witness the same awesomeness someday. If we want to see that happen, I think we all need to do our part- supporting bands, showing up at gigs, buying T-shirts and raising the horns. It doesn’t matter if you’re a man, a woman, or a mix of both, if you love metal, you should be allowed to support the community. Bands and labels and everyone else should realize that females also form an active (and attractive) portion of the sub-culture.
I have never been groped or harassed at gigs. But many women have not been as lucky. I think all we ask for is to be treated with a little dignity, and not as walking pieces of fuck-meat.
Metal is not for everyone. No matter if you are male or female, only some people grow to love this unique genre of music.
And metal happens to be one of the few non-mainstreams genres of music where looks don’t matter. You are respected for your talent and your personal conduct. Not because of the car you drive or the size of you assets. Let’s keep it that way.
I think what metaliac said is SPOT ON the scene surely aint the same anyone who remembers the scene in the 80’s and 90’s it the was shit and i mean that in a good way its sad to say metaliac but i think metal is looking at a end of a era i think ur gonna see more and more bands like otep who are false metal and will be passed on as real metal cause this new and younger generation sadly don’t know shit.
Why i say this when i meet someone a guy or girl and they are likes whos Bathory who’s exodus who’s Mercyful fate? those are not good signs people thinking otep and lamb of god is part of the underground is even more something to be fearful of now the new black metal bands coming out of the Usa or Europe are mainly just copying what was done in the 80’s and 90’s but really what other scene is there.
There is doom but i do see doom as the new Gothic metal i think in ten years or so it will have a lot of women and the metal will get watered down it always does hell just having a women as your mate who plays another style of music can be a bad thing look at morbid angel David Vincent leaves morbid angel marries the chick in the Genitorturers joins their band which is a industrial band goes back to morbid angel then morbid angel is recording a industrial album could all this just be a Coincidence.
I highly doubt it all through the 80’s and 90’s what did women produce really? one band Girlshool and that was pretty much it women have never got respect in this style of music and i don’t think they ever will becuse its simple bands like iron maiden,Judas Preist,Saxon,mayhem,emperor,Bathory, these bands never damned respect they earned it by putting out good records sometimes they won us over with a release sometimes they did not you have never heard Metallica cry about it people are attacking us or Judas Preist or the long line of all male bands(that built the house that we stand on that we call heavy metal)and say if we were women you would not of attacked us.
Why not? i think its simple if you cant make the music and roll with the punches its a style of music you don’t simply belong in either as a fan or a musician many people who now wanna be Metalheads but will say this band should not use the c word this band should not use the n word you know what i say to them? FUCK YOU! you simpley don’t belong here metal is at its best when it is offending someone less freedom of speech means less metal if you ask me.
Well i did not intend to call you out metaliac but you should get in touch with me im putting up my own website its gonna be 150% old school 80’s and 90’s we need some mods and admins you might fit in nicely send me a msg if interested.hellhammer
yes I’m interested. as I see no way how I could send you a private message on this site this is my mail goatofdeath[BLACK]hotmail[DEATH]com.
When you see this, you will weep!
http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/metal-bands-2000s.asp
Cygnus i wanna be clear cause this is not me trying to have a go or be a dick but to be honest besides eye-candy im not really sure what women bring to the table and you wanting metal to get better how many good new groups i mean really good new ones have come out since 00 and beyond i think we are looking at a end of a era.
Most of the good bands out there come from the 70’s 80’s and 90’s if you ask me anyone who has just turned up all i can say is sorry you missed it there are good bands they all come from the decades i mentioned and after those bands are gone real metal as we know it is gonna have a real dark cloud over it i hope new bands to form and rise up but i also think its unlikly.
Go to bed old man, with your tired “real metal” rhetoric. Tip: There’s No Such Thing as real metal, just the inspiration and drive you felt from aggressive music in your youth. Kids felt it when you were a kid, Kids are feeling it now, and kids will be feeling long after us.
I’m afraid I might have to agree with you on that Hellhammer =(
I was born in the 90’s and in the 2000’s we were fed the radio friendly stuff like System of a Down. It was through friends and the internet that I discovered metal, and ever since I feel like I’m stuck in a time capsule.
Over the last decade or so, there’s been some good stuff coming out from all parts of the world, but there’s been nothing Earth-shattering since the 90’s. It’s really sad and I really hope things change for the better.
And to be absolutely honest, I cannot give you any examples of things women have done to revolutionize metal. Other than a handful of female musicians, I think the rest of us have just been playing the role of housewives at the ticketing counters and back stage (Now kill me for saying that.) But I believe that women have the capacity to do great things too. It won’t hurt to give them a chance. And metal needs more fans, so just let them feel welcome at gigs.
One area women do seem to have contributed a lot to is publicity and journalism. One exceptionally interesting example is Deena Weinstein, a Sociologist who studies the rock and heavy metal subculture. In a time when most academics and researchers try to prove that loud music makes kids homicidal, she’s done a lot to document the beauty of the sub-culture. And that I think is pretty awesome
@VyceVictus piss off you poser and stay away from our music.
@VyceVictus
No one is ever too old for metal!
@Cygnus Well just let me say i do feel for kids who were teenagers in 2000 or are now teenagers if they are into modern day metal its a sad state of affairs let me tell you something about myself in 1980 i was 12 going on 13 i had no idea of the scene was growing it was just so exciting wasp posters that took up your whole wall and the term hail satan made you a true outsider.
So few bands sand the dark stuff back in the day there was venom,bathory and celtic frost and i truly did not and still dont consider venom to be great band as far as black metal there are just 1000s of bands doing it now.It was really wild there were just 1000s of metal magazines every year a new crop of bands came out.Even i at times was so amazed at this i was like how long can this last how many sub-genres of metal can metal really add but with black metal,death metal thrash metal,norwegian black metal,death metal,grind,grindcore,doom,funeral doom,nu metal,its just endless there must be 30 or more.
If there was a female metallica or slayer and was as talented and the lyrics were not how much we hate men i dont think most male metalheads would care to be honest with you but i do feel not all but a lot of women take the easy way out its much harder to play in a slayer type band then lets say a lacuna coil type band if the girl is good looking she can use her sex to sell the band not saying this is wrong but if you are really into real metal and you do this you really are taking the easy way out.
All in all you sound like someone who loves metal we dont see eye to eye on everything but really do we need to? you should e-mail me next month or the month following im gonna be putting up a website gonna need some people to mod. admins and also looking for some people to do the geek work on the site would love to have you along heres my e-mail the_winds_of_mayhem@yahoo.com
hellhammer I would have to say that a lot of women choose to sing like cristina cause they want to show case a real talent they have but I do believe what you say about being a metal fan and selling out too because I love love metal Death metal Black metal and yet I love it when someone like Cristina has a real voice the thing is a lot of women try to do this without that talent just cause and others feel women can only be taken seriously that way and or they truly have an awesome voice and wants to use that talent, but love hard metal and would love a way to incorprate that and still be taken seriously I know there has been times, I have had bands that were too soft for me or not allowing me to be a little rough and I have done goth music as a result, cause I have love for lots of music. I have felt like wow! I was asked to sing for this band but and I would be great but Im a metal fan… and I would feel Im totally selling out and btw way love hellhammer and I love piddling on drums but Im a vocalist as well with all octaves and thats why I had to comment on this I feel these things need to be said, and how do you think women could be taken more seriously when other girls are looking like whores and trying to growl looking like this and making a mockery for a damn gimick, in your opinion or any advice from men please lets us know what you feel and how can we fix this situation???? thank you much appreciated
So cygnus this Deena Weinstein is postive at metal bands and metal fans? a bit shocking when i first read your msg i thought you said she was just doing what everyone else does and says we are homicidal or guys that beat up their girlfriends its nice that there is someone out there reporting the good i think male metalheads have their guard up even higher because of female reporters don’t always report the truth.
cygnus you were not lying that is ONE SAD FUCKING LIST only a few of those bands still make good cd’s
That ticked me off so much i had to make a list of my own some asshole thought it was funny to add slipknot to my list how they can do that without asking you is beyond me but the rest of the list is mine.
http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/125292.asp?showshare
This article is shit… I cannot speak for this woman’s experiences; however, there always seems to be a double standard. Women encouraged to empower themselves sexually and men encouraged to tone down theirs. Why is it wrong for a man to look at a woman at a metal show and think she’s attractive while a girl can sit in the audience and say the guitarist is so sexy? It comes down to a basic respect for individuals. I would hit on a girl at a metal concert, and I would hold a real conversation with one too. If a woman wasn’t interested in me, I would respect that. There are lyrics in metal that objectify women at times… Fuckin deal with it or piss off… your choice. Actually, lets work on laws to censor music, because that is what metal is about!?!? Sorry you got raped, but at the same time it wasn’t a guy like me (or 99.9% of metal heads)that did it to you. Metal does not need political correctness or lame ass hippies. I will not appologize if this comes across as rude or arrogant. At the same time, I am very accepting of women at metal shows and am always respectful
You clearly don’t understand metal nor political correctness . Metal is supposed be on the side of the oppressed, not the opresser. I assume that you would agree if I told you that women is opressed by men and the society in general. Ofcourse there’s a difference between tongue in the cheek lyrics like cannibal corpse’s and mysoginistic shit like guns ‘n roses’ stuff. What bothers women is the 2nd one. We can obviously make the difference and we’re not saying that metal should talk about unicorns and candy and going shopping with your mom. And what’s wrong with women saying that the guitarist is hot? As if men listen to metal bands with female members without the thought of that woman is sexy? But no, men are there for the music and women are there to get in bed with the guitarist right? It’s easier to say like it or leave it instead of coming up with a solution but how would you feel if you were black, Jewish etc and you heard lets say Burzum?
I think i’m very lucky. I’m a fourteen year old girl who’s never experienced any sexism in metal and neither have my friends. The guys treat us as equals, not objects. I’m not so sure if it was the world of metal that discriminated against women, or just some men in general. And if that’s the case, some still do now, and likewise for women to men. There will always be discrimination – metal or not.
I really feel women have come a long way too be able to fit in with metal music to have other women who don’t really sing or scream, or growl well but perform with their tits out, ruin it for the rest of us what does anyone have to say about this how can we keep women looking seriously with stupid shit like this kind of gimick???? and what are we gonna do about it? how can we get the word out or promote real music not girls objectifying their selfs its ok to have a bit of a sexy look but to look like a street walker and still can”t perform thats a fucking joke wouldn’t you agree?
If you take the sexism out of metal where would Cannibal Corpse be? Fucked With A Knife, anyone? Entrails Ripped From A Virgins Cunt? Metal is not meant to be taken seriously, if it was then we should all be trying to sin and then kill ourselves so we can go “Running With The Devil” in the literal sense. But that would be silly. It just makes for good lyrics. Especially the abuse of women because it’s good shock value. The reason it’s good shock value is because people know it’s wrong. The people who were going to sexually use and abuse women were going to do that weather the songs told them too or not, metal songs or otherwise.
Yes, women should be treated as equals, but taking it out of the music isn’t going to help.
I think a song about guys getting their dicks get cut off would be even more shocking.
Couldn’t agree more! You’re so right!
I think I start listening to metal for similar reasons as the writer of this article. But I’m a man, and wasn’t raped. Other things happened in my life which pent up rage with in and metal ended up being my conduit, and helps me function in society peacefully. I never really thought of women before, sexist or non-sexist, it just never came up. But now I realize how there’s been a seperation between the sexes in metal.