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The reunion of Killing Joke’s original lineup and the resulting album Absolute Dissent has meant busy days for iconoclastic frontman Jaz Coleman. His schedule has been packed with as many as 15 interviews a day, often in succession. But he doesn’t see the band slowing down. “We’re all going back into the studio next year, and we’ll probably do another American tour. And at the beginning of the year, we’ll work on a new album. Such is the vibe with us while we continue promoting this record. It’s a very prolific and creative time for us”.
Coleman is accustomed to change and fickle listeners and journalists, including the spike in interest in the band’s original lineup. This is, after all, an artist that has spent his life playing tricks on listeners. His success is evident in the face that Killing Joke is one of the few bands that could never be successfully pigeonholed. Listeners tuning into an ’80s station on satellite radio are likely familiar with “Eighties” and “Love Like Blood”. Fans of heavier music were seduced by Hosannas from the Basement of Hell. Devotees called Gatherers know the whole catalog. Killing Joke – and Coleman’s amazing, inimitable voice – have touched listeners of every persuasion.
It’s no surprise that Coleman often brings up actor Heath Ledger, who earned a posthumous Oscar for his riveting portrayal of The Joker in The Dark Knight. An interview with him isn’t a series of questions by interviewer so much as an interrogation by artist. Talking to him is somewhat reminiscent of the interrogation scene in The Dark Knight. Your illusion that you are in control and asking the questions is quickly dispelled. I didn’t expect anything less.
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I was reading a book recently called Enemies Within about conspiracy theories in American history. The author suggests that while many of us want to think there are sinister forces at work, that’s usually not the case. You’ve always been someone who believed there is a secret history.
I don’t care for the whole conspiracy culture. I certainly don’t buy into most of it. But I do buy into the fact that there is a secret history of the world. There’s two histories. There’s a history for the ordinary, and there is a history for the initiated or enlightened. It’s always been the case throughout history.
I was brought up in an academic family, and I was certainly brought up to think for myself. But my family was largely atheist, and I had three religious experiences before the age of six or seven. I was very involved in church, and by the time I was eight I had different books on philosophy and magic and shamanism. Different aspects of the mystery tradition have always been part of my life. It’s something innate. It’s something I’ve had to accept.
Do we even need to look for alternative history or conspiracies when what’s in plain sight is often just as frightening? When you are on the Internet, a virtual big brother tracks you all the time.
You could also live in a state of fucking paranoia as well that drives you mad. A lot of the things that drive conspiracy theories are phantoms. What makes you think anyone gives a flying monkey about half of our lives? Most of us aren’t terrorists or terrorist material, and I think half the time all the conspiracy culture is fueled by fantasists. But it sells, doesn’t it?
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“The Great Cull”
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The new album is called Absolute Dissent. In a world where about two percent of the population controls half of the wealth and thus the power associated with it, is real dissent even possible?
I think so, and I think it comes down to education in the end. We invariably create elites when only about one percent of the population understands the complex issues of the day. Look at the American electorate with the tea baggers and [Sarah] Palin. When it comes to foreign policy, many of these people aren’t very informed.
I believe in personal politics. I don’t really participate in actual politics. Civil liberties are very dear to me, something we must not relinquish. That’s the responsibility of every citizen, to ensure that civil liberties are maintained in a free and democratic system. Basically, what I’m trying to say is we are shaping the future. We all have to participate in finding solutions.
When you sat down with your original lineup to write this album, did it feel overwhelming knowing the significance people would attach to it?
It was always in the cards that the original lineup would get back together. And it has great meaning now. This is a golden era for Killing Joke. It’s taken a long time for people to wake up to our band’s significance. We also have no peer group. We have no people from our period that are together or even alive. So we’ve been forced to accept that we are now part of the establishment in certain respects (laughs).
One of the songs is called “The Great Cull”. You suggest nutrients are being systematically taken out of our food.
We’re inviting debate and discussion about what the hell we’re going to do about the fact that we are putting so much stress on the ecosystem because of the rise in the population. No one is addressing the population report. Every citizen should read the Global 2000 report. The findings are profound. We must do something about the population increase. Unless we do something, people will take things into their own hands.
The biggest problem is how to tell the subcontinent of India not to reproduce. Part of it is education. Gandhi tried this – [offering] free radios for sterilization. There needs to be mass education and taxes on people for every child. In schoolbooks, there should be no positive associations with childbirth. That would be a good start.
How the hell are we going to deal with China, even with a one-child policy? The population is still expanding. There’s huge stress on the world’s ecosystem when you have people who want to eat meat and are no longer happy with rice and vegetables. They want to eat meat, and there’s not enough arable land to provide enough meat.
How are we going to deal with this?
The only logical answer is to divide the world into four blocks. The Americas, the European Union, The African Union, and the Asia-Pacific Union. Then a world council that will be annexed onto the exiting U.N. That’s the only way to solve all of these problems effectively at once. And now you see! It could still go two ways. It could be the dream of Beethoven and Schiller, the brotherhood of man. Or it could be an authoritarian model. We have a choice there also.
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I took a train recently through California’s central valley. We passed all of these corporate mega-farms. We also passed huge junkyards and ramshackle homes. It was a stark contrast.
Terrific. Look, the only thing we can do is to look at models to increase biodiversity. If we don’t want to be dependent on petrol dollars, we need to turn every town and village into a republic. I understand the tea baggers’ call for less government because I believe each area must be self-reliant to have a sustainable ecosystem. They need to use produce from their area. Every village should be a republic.
Absolute Dissent has the heaviness of your self-titled 2003 release, but there are also moments that remind me of Brighter than a Thousand Suns.
No, no, no. Listen, we have no idea what a Killing Joke record is going to be like until we get together. And it’s never what you think. This album was jammed in the studio, and I had no idea it was going to land the way it landed. There are no preconceptions or designs on our albums. We just get together. Even if you do have ideas about what it’s going to sound like, they are usually thrown asunder.
Working with the original lineup, were you able to incorporate what made you so special as a band in addition to the things you learned playing when Paul Raven was in the band?
Again, it’s not something you analyze. Everyone has their own style and their own way of playing. We get the instruments and play, and that’s what it sounds like. End of story.
The cover of Laugh, I Nearly Bought One (a greatest hits collection) features that famous image of a priest blessing Nazi soldiers. That always seemed to sum up one of Killing Joke’s main ideas: seemingly good, benign forces are actually anything but good and benign.
That particular photo was the Pope blessing the Nazi Party during the last World War. As we can see with recent history, the Roman Catholic church is far cry from being a force for good in this world. You wouldn’t let your children alone with a Catholic priest now, would you? (laughs)
I certainly wouldn’t.
The demographics aren’t good, are they? The establishment, especially religion, is suspect. And I’ve got a problem with the Roman Catholic church telling Africans not to use condoms while trying to increase the population. They are irresponsible at best and largely a corrupt force based on repressed sexuality.
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Jaz Coleman on “the journey”
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With all of the biting social messages on Killing Joke’s records do you ever worry that you are preaching to the converted?
I don’t give it a lot of thought. These are very simple mantras to adapt to changes in the world. We do it for ourselves primarily. We don’t think about how the audience will respond. It’s what we like, and that’s the end of the fucking story.
What do you think of Ray Kurzweil’s idea of technological singularity, the idea that man and machine will become one a little past the half-century mark?
Kurzweil’s notion of singularity is a nightmare. The idea that we are evolving to a state where nanotechnology and biotechnology are inseparable from AI is a nightmare scenario. You would live to the age of 300 and lose all memories of what it is like to feel and love. Your soul would die.
Professor [Francis] Fukuyama also talks about the post-human world. I don’t believe it’s going to happen. The way things look, we’ll have so many natural disasters, we’ll have our hands busy trying to increase food production in a turbulent world where our environment is deteriorating. I don’t think it’s going to pan out like that. I’m thinking of the saying “God destroyeth that which displeaseth him”.
So it doesn’t even look like we’ll be around for technological singularity?
Kurzweil put the date of the singularity much later, but many other people put the date of singularity at 2012. So who knows? We may not have to wait (laughs). Who gives a fuck, anyway! The bottom line is, we’re living today, enjoy the now, and some things you can’t do anything about.
You’ve always worn makeup on stage.
I do that only to protect myself. We put on the mask and take off the mask. It’s very important. When I go onstage, I’m seeking transmission and I get in a trance-like state. The idea of taking the mask off…if you don’t take the mask off, you take that world into your own life. Take Heath Ledger, for example. We are well aware of the energies that surround us in Killing Joke and the peculiarities. The mask isn’t for other people’s benefit. It’s for my own protection.
It strikes me as similar to black metal performers who wear spikes and corpespaint and talk about how they enter a completely different frame of mind when they go on stage.
Well, I’m sure they haven’t been doing this for 32 years (laughs).
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KILLING JOKE – NORTH AMERICAN TOUR ‘10
Dec. 02 – Black Cat – Washington,WA
Dec. 03 – Irving Plaza – New York City, NY
Dec. 04 – Paradise Lounge – Boston, MA
Dec. 06 – Cabaret Du Musee – Montreal, QC
Dec. 07 – Phoenix Concert Theatre – Toronto, ON
Dec. 09 – Crofoot Ballroom – Pontiac, MI
Dec. 10 – Empty Bottle – Chicago, IL
Dec. 11 – Empty Bottle – Chicago, IL
Dec. 14 – The Venue – Vancouver, BC
Dec. 15 – Showbox – Seattle, WA
Dec. 16 – Wonder Ballroom – Portland, OR
Dec. 17 – Regency Ballroom – San Francisco, CA
Dec. 18 – Wiltern – Los Angeles, CA
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BUY ABSOLUTE DISSENT
Amazon (CD)
Amazon (MP3)
Killing Joke official store
. . .
One of the all time greats. Always a pleasure to read.
Incredible interview! Jaz is just brimming with charisma. I’m one of those “Gatherers” who’s familiar with their entire discography and their new record really captures elements from all their era: blistering metal, chopped up post punk, goth pop, heavy dub. It’s great! Novices should really check out their two self-titled records (1980, 2003), Extremities, and Pandemonium. Those are my favorite KJ records.
a good read none the less.
I was with him until the environmentalist religious bullshit. He then reduced himself to a typical, self-righteous rockstar asshole that thinks he has all the fucking answers, but in the end, feeds off nothing but the same anecdotal “evidence” and scare tactics that have been dispelled time and time again, but are not as popular (or money making) as the climate change advocacy movement.
If he was sincere, he’d go ahead and call Al Gore out on his bullshit, read up on the flaws in IPCC, and actually read the documentation on blacklisting, lying, and coverups involved in the science community that created an advocacy movement not based in anything.
And yes, I’ve studied this bullshit on a scientific level and was turned around from the advocacy that sucked me in.
It’s all bullshit designed to control people and make money for a few and that’s no fucking conspiracy, Jaz. You’re perpetuating the bullshit.
Oh, and read a more up to date report on population. Not saying it’s not completely wrong, but you need to take into account how the world and humans defy projections and how there’s little stuff going on inside of those trends, in unitization. On top of that, NO ONE should be sitting back in their nice, comfortable western house, on their couch, flatscreen in front of them, with plenty of choices of how to do things, especially when those choices we think are great for the fucking environment end up killing people and suppressing progress in developing nations. Jaz acts like the anti-corporatist, yet he’s pulling for them with his own bullshit about the environment that only serves to empower corporations using their scheme, then suppresses badly needed development potential in developing nations.
I’d like to see you back up some of these assertions actually. A lot of them read as thin as some Jaz’s more paranoid contributions.
Particularly, this one:
“those choices we think are great for the fucking environment end up killing people and suppressing progress in developing nations”
The science on climate change is pretty solid, btw. Ditto overpopulation and food security. Corporations exploit both ends of the issues but that doesn’t mean we don’t need to take action.
Of course they are thin- this is a comments section on a metal site. I suggest you pick up the IPCC report, then I don’t know, google for any article since the end of Fall 2009 and how it was piece by piece found to be an utter fraud and how blacklisting was used to suppress dissenting scientists.
Your assertion of climate change is not thin? Where have you been since 2009? I’ve been studying the progression on a scientific level, and what it has done to the scientific community from the inside, and you’re claiming the information is solid?
If it wasn’t climate change, you’d be obsessed with religion because this is not anything other than an advocacy that has turned into a religion.
What action do we need to take? I’d like to see it quantified by you, Christopher. Action against what? The data that you’re using, is the only data out there- the flawed IPCC based data that was a complete lie, using sources that were also respectable sounding from other journals, and later found to be faked themselves. The depth of the climate change community and how much they are on the take is astounding, and for those older than us, they know that this was pushed on us several times, with an ice age being the last one.
The IPCC didn’t even quantify volcanic emissions, nor did they take into account the solar radiation, nor did they even take into account the biggest greehouse contributor of them all: water vapor from the oceans!
@Dr.– Thanks for reading and commenting. Just out of curiosity, if you so vehemently disagree with the science of global warming/overpopulation why are you reading lengthy interviews with a musician who is known for voicing exceptionally strong opinions about these topics, opinions that are obviously antithetical to your views? Is it sort of like when I watch Sean Hannity — something that just provokes you?
Also, categorizing Jaz as a rock star is way off the mark. Killing Joke certainly isn’t living high on the hog like Mick Jagger and co. And a rock star would never generously grant so much time to numerous interviewers. Even if you disagree with his politics it’s a micharacterization. Jaz is a ferociously talented, funny and thoughtful guy who doesn’t share your opinion. You’d probably enjoy talking to him regardless.
“I suggest you pick up the IPCC report, then I don’t know, google for any article since the end of Fall 2009 and how it was piece by piece found to be an utter fraud and how blacklisting was used to suppress dissenting scientists.”
I read the IPCC report and am aware of all the scientific blacklisting, etc. But to dismiss environmental activism (or else to conflate it with religion) is narrow. From the melting of the polar ice caps to the acidification of the oceans to the continual increase in global temperature levels, clearly something is at work (man-made or not) that we need to confront if we are to survive on a mass level. Honestly, you just sound bitter. The IPCC let you down so now why bother…
I’m old enough to remember many environmental doomsday scenarios that never played out the way the media but I am hard pressed to see how crafting a more sustainable life style for Western countries is in any way a “religious bullshit movement.”
Then again, this really isn’t the appropriate forum for these kinds of discussions. Jaz is entitled to his opinions, even if he leans towards the paranoiac.
No offense dear Dr, but your post reads like just as much armchair proselytizing. I may not be fully informed, but I know enough not to base my actions on a message handed down from a professional musician. By the same token, I give even less credence to the views of an anonymous poster on a blog interview of said musician. But kudos to you for defending your stance.
With that out of the way: huge fan of Jaz, huge fan of KJ and all of their output! The four albums Christopher mentions are great, though I’d add that Fire Dances, Nighttime, and Hosannas are equally worthy, and interesting in their own right. One of my favorite qualities of this band is their ability to continually change and progress without losing their distinctive voice. With the exception of the first two albums — the second is pretty much in line with the first — they’ve never repeated themselves. I wish this interview had more discussion about the music and the contributions of Big Paul and Youth, but it was a fine interview anyway.
Now I need to find a reasonably priced copy of the deluxe version of Absolute Dissent with the covers disc…
Great interview!
So Justin – when you asked about conspiracy theories, where you leading him…?
I seem to remember a comment Jazz made between songs on one of the live discs about 9-11 (implying it was an inside job).
@Mnt — Thank you, glad you enjoyed. I wasn’t leading him anywhere in this case. Since he’s talked so much about the topic I was more interested in getting a broad overview of what set him down the path of thinking about government, power, etc., in such stark terms. I try not to lead in interviews if I can help it.
I haven’t kept up with all the KJ live releases — there are many — but it wouldn’t surprise me if Jax said something like that. Although he did say here he didn’t believe in conscipiracies as much as two versions of history which I don’t think of as tin-foil hat perspective. Jaz also is someone who will say things just to provoke, which I think is fantastic.
@Dr…
I suggest you pick up the IPCC report, then I don’t know, google for any article since the end of Fall 2009 and how it was piece by piece found to be an utter fraud and how blacklisting was used to suppress dissenting scientists.
You made the assertion, so I’d suggest the burden of proof is on you. Pull some direct quotes or citations from the report. Provide us with links. It’s been my experience in arguing with people that “I have all of this proof, and you should go find it and read it” is shorthand for “I can’t actually support any of the assertions I’m making with empirical evidence, but I hope that if I keep insisting that the evidence exists, then that somehow wins the argument for me.” At the very least, it’s lazy arguing. Show your work.
I recently broke my Killing Joke cherry with the first self titled. Good stuff. I’m sure I’ll be content with that record for a while.
@Justin. I love how you brought this interview full circle with the cover of Alan Moore’s Killing Joke. You should interview Alan Moore (good luck).
I thought it was a pretty cool interview – I might not celebrate their whole catalog, but the parts of Killing Joke’s catalog I do celebrate, I really celebrate.
Then again, this…
The biggest problem is how to tell the subcontinent of India not to reproduce. Part of it is education. Gandhi tried this – [offering] free radios for sterilization. There needs to be mass education and taxes on people for every child. In schoolbooks, there should be no positive associations with childbirth. That would be a good start.
…just makes me want to say “oh, dude. DUDE. What the hell, dude?”
Which is why I don’t look to musicians as experts upon whose beliefs I base my worldview.
If Jaz Coleman is kinda wacky, that’s okay. I’m gonna go jam “Asteroid” and “Another Bloody Election” and “Wardance” now.
i for one welcome our gloriously shiny new robotic overlords!
Dude says, “I don’t really participate in actual politics.” Then prescribes a four-fold division of the world and forced population control measures for poor countries.
Nice.
Great interview, though, for bringing out these apocalyptic ramblings; I mean, the sense I have is that the guy probably lobs the same sort of thing at his postman, too, but your line of questioning seems pretty on point.
The NYC show was a dream set list and they are totally on top of their game. Flawless execution that was raw and huge sounding. They ripped through most of the first record along with classics from the rest of their catalog and new material with equal intensity. A show that will not soon be forgotten.
It goes without saying that everything a musician says outside of the purview of music should be taken with a grain of salt. Right? No one’s gonna drop “The Blog Comment That Saved The World” anymore than they’ll drop “The Interview That Saved The World”.
That said, Jaz Coleman is an amazing, thoughtful artist and I always fuller and inspired for hearing his thoughts on any number of matters. He’s one of those rare artists who can convey the same vibe in his music as he does in his speech–Steve Austin is one as well. It’s an inseparable whole.
Would people really be down for an Alan Moore interview? Not sure if it’s relevant enough to IO, but I’m also a HUGE fan.
Cliff Evans and Spinal Tapdance summed up my thoughts on this already. I won’t be voting for Jaz for president this election cycle, but I enjoyed the interview nevertheless.
@ Cliff Evans, Spinal Tapdance and Pseudonymus, I can see why you don’t agree with Jaz’ ideas about birth control, but one has to live on an overpopulated third world country to fully understand this point and put ideologies aside for a moment. Think about it: more people = more crime, less food, less access to education, jobs and basic services. It’s just mathematics…
feeling ecstatic.
hit up Amoeba this weekend, snagged the deluxe version of Absolute Dissent for 18.98 (much cheaper than online retailers). so far this record kills. i’ve always felt every KJ album stands on its own: they tend to tear through a new style for an entire album, bludgeoning you with repetition (in the best way possible). this one is unique in that it actually opts for variety in tone, texture, and rhythm. it’s not as heavy as the last 2 records, but the production is every bit as ugly. very fucking cool.
aaaaaand… just scored tix for their Wiltern show next saturday. been waiting YEARS to see them: every time they played over the last decade i wound up with colossal, unshiftable conflicts. Bout. Fucking. Time.
@Rufus Johnson Brown – Well, yes, I do disagree with his proposed fixes for some of our pressing geopolitical problems. I’m pretty much fine with that disagreement, though; what actively pissed me off about his statements was that he prefaced them by basically saying, “Oh, yeah, I don’t really do that whole political participation thing.” The fact that his paranoia/apocalyptic vision is written on a larger scale makes this no difference from the bullshit cop-out of anyone who tells you they don’t vote or take part in any other direct political action but continues to whine about all the world’s problems.
Obviously, the world would be an atrociously dull place if all artists and fans shared the same opinions, so I’m happy for this insight into his worldview. And I actually do dig quite of bit of KJ’s music, I just find the sophisticated and academic sheen Jaz floats over these ridiculous claims to be unconvincing and self-serving rubbish.
Shit. That should be, “…makes this no [different] from…”
@ Spinal Tapdance: Man, we could not agree more. I also find all that “I’m not into politics and don’t vote but am all for activism” claims to be contradictory and hypocrite on most cases. That’s why I hate bands like Rage against the Machine and System of a Down: they claim to “hate the capitalist US regime” and bla bla bla, but are signed to a major label and keep on milking the cow. Makes me remember the lyrics for the song “USA for USA” by Carnivore: “If you don’t like it here, then pack your shit and leave”.
Alee I don’t think a musician’s words outside of the realm of music should be with a larger grain of salt than any other person’s words about something other than their profession/passion. are we all necessarily biased/unreliable/uninformed except about only the one thing that’s our passion or pays our bills? this statement seems to echo the kind of eye rolling people do when a celebrity (that term doesn’t really apply here) embraces some pet cause.
I’d take his words about music with an equal if not greater grain of salt. His dismissal (never mind the relative merits of the genre for a sec) of black metal for one is an opinion I take with a heaping teaspoon.
Whatever the situation in terms of overpopulation, his proposed solutions are preposterous, though completely consistent with his generally apocalyptic world view. Then again, this is the guy who flipped out and moved to Iceland when he thought the world was going to end. It didn’t, and he came back and made great music, but it wouldn’t be the first time he was wrong about something.
I don’t automatically take all musicians’ words with a grain of salt, though they aren’t my go-to source for philosophy or anything. Some musicians are funny, smart, and insightful. Others aren’t, but make great music. It’s sometimes disappointing when someone whose work you admire comes off sounding stupid in an interview, but I don’t get bummed out at Stephen Hawking’s terrible singing voice, either.
I love crazy people.